Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Oh it's pretty simple Mobius. You hate the current legitimate president of the united states.

People like you are absolute cancer. Anything that pisses you off is amazing.

[TheodoricFriede]

You made a bad argument rebuttal.

Very insightful.

Mobius, interacting with you makes me feel like I'm goddamned Socrates.

[Mobius_118]

It's pretty simple, GAC.

I knew what he was about back in the 90's. Anyone with a shred of decency would, and is, pissed that the bought and paid for lackey of a foreign power is currently running this country straight into the ground. Meanwhile you foamed at the mouth over President Obama because he was black.

I'm far more irritated that trump is breaking laws every day so flagrantly, yet President Obama wore a tan suit once and the GOP lost their minds.

Cognitive dissonance in the Libertarian and GOP parties is an amazing field to study. You've been very helpful as a case study.

You made a bad argument rebuttal.

Very insightful.

Mobius, interacting with you makes me feel like I'm goddamned Socrates.

You're more like Aristophanes.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's pretty simple, GAC.

I knew what he was about back in the 90's. Anyone with a shred of decency would, and is, pissed that the bought and paid for lackey of a foreign power is currently running this country straight into the ground. Meanwhile you foamed at the mouth over President Obama because he was black.
\

Mobius. Dear.

I'm gonna have to tell you this one more time. Because you seem to be just a bit too far left to understand it.

I. Do. Not. Give. A. Single. Flying. Fuck. About. Race. Or. Sex.

[Mobius_118]

Clearly. You. Do.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Clearly. You. Do.

Oh? I Do? Explain it with your superior lefty brain.

You're making a serious claim cupcake. Better back it up.

[Mobius_118]

Now I'm going to pull a you, and leave you hanging.

Been studying you for years. Let's see if you're intellectually honest enough to follow up.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Now I'm going to pull a you, and leave you hanging.

Been studying you for years. Let's see if you're intellectually honest enough to follow up.

You have no proof of anything.

But I disagree with so I must hate brown people and women. Because that's how your brain works. Get fucked Mobius.

[Mobius_118]

Neither do you, little man.

You make all these claims, yet you actually know nothing about me.

So, to quote you.

Get fucked.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Neither do you, little man.

You make all these claims, yet you actually know nothing about me.

So, to quote you.

Get fucked.

You are consistently salty about Trump winning.

And you still haven't shown how i hate brown people.

I do know YOU have used Capitalist as an insult.

[Mobius_118]

And I know you just won't accept that the United States is a Socialist Democracy, despite you gaining benefits from it all the time in real life.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You really really really fucking need to learn your terms.

We're not even a SOCIAL DEMOCRACY like the Scandinavian countries are. We're a representative Republic with a government that provides a handful of services.

That isn't fucking socialist. The means of production haven't been seized. Huge tracks of the economy haven't been completely nationalized. People aren't starving.

[Mazder]

And I know you just won't accept that the United States is a Socialist Democracy, despite you gaining benefits from it all the time in real life.

Except it's not.
Just because it aligns with your political beliefs does not make it so.
Unless you undergo a system change where you adopt changes that mean you have Socialist leader styles and methods you are still a Presidential Democracy.

Hell if you just look on the Wikipedia page alone for the types of Democracy Socialist Democracy isn't even a Representative Democracy, or in the very least not in the same category.
And if you go down to Democratic Socialism you have a very interesting footnote in the History section, and I quote;
"US politics has seen the term "democratic socialism" confused with social democracy and the Nordic model, prompting the Prime Minister of Denmark, Lars Løkke Rasmussen, to assert that the Nordic model involves a market economy and not a socialist one."

So even if these "experts" of yours do think your country is a Socialist Democracy the public opinion is sadly (or more accurately, gladly) in opposition to this notion, and even if it weren't it's the wrong thing entirely.

[Mobius_118]

Ok, boys. Whatever you say.

Clearly you laymen know more than peer-reviewed experts on the matter.

[TheodoricFriede]

Its like...

Watching astronauts try to explain that the earth is round to a flat-earther.

Or a geologist explaining that the earth is more then 4000 years old to a fundamentalist.

[Mazder]

Ok, boys. Whatever you say.

Clearly you laymen know more than peer-reviewed experts on the matter.

If they're such good experts then how come they've had no impact on public knowledge?
How come every time you bring up these "experts" there are no papers, studies or even names for them?
Would it be because they're all probably socialists themselves an biased or are they all just nobodies that are only supported by their own circle, meaning the "peer review" for them is null an void?
How about some info from the international community? Are these experts a part of the international studies or are they all Socialist Americans looking to push their agenda?

Basically until you forward some proof other than opinion and implication from "shadow experts" your comments on if the USA is A Socialist based political climate is down to popular opinion, one your own country doesn't share.

[Mobius_118]

Ok, Mazder. I want you to look at the anti-vaxxer movement. Vaccines don't cause autism, but they don't care. There's doctors that have more education and experience than this entire little forum combined, and the anti-vaccine movement will still risk their kids and other people's kids just because.

Look at the trump supporter group. Their leader lies, breaks the laws, fucks everyone who isn't a billionaire over, kills jobs, commits treason, the list goes on. If anyone else had done an iota of that, or wore a tan suit, they go insane. But when trump does it, they love it. It's a cult. Follow the news or do any research and you will find every instance of his law breaking, the laws he violates, and the punishment. They don't care.

The reason why people don't accept the United States as a Socialist Democracy is the same reason why trump supporters cling tighter to their leader. They are terrified of being wrong. And they are wrong.

[Mazder]

Ok, Mazder. I want you to look at the anti-vaxxer movement. Vaccines don't cause autism, but they don't care. There's doctors that have more education and experience than this entire little forum combined, and the anti-vaccine movement will still risk their kids and other people's kids just because.

Look at the trump supporter group. Their leader lies, breaks the laws, fucks everyone who isn't a billionaire over, kills jobs, commits treason, the list goes on. If anyone else had done an iota of that, or wore a tan suit, they go insane. But when trump does it, they love it. It's a cult. Follow the news or do any research and you will find every instance of his law breaking, the laws he violates, and the punishment. They don't care.

The reason why people don't accept the United States as a Socialist Democracy is the same reason why trump supporters cling tighter to their leader. They are terrified of being wrong. And they are wrong.

Except there is one salient point. You're the one going against the norm. In this example you're the anti-vaxxers side. Common sense dictates that the USA is not as Socialist Democracy. It is, and never was, a Socialist based anything. The USA has been adamantly anti-Socialist since it's inception.
Just because it uses some structures that benefits society doesn't make it Socialist. Having a few Socialist examples doesn't make it based in Socialism and doesn't alter it's position.
If the USA is a Socialist Democracy then so is the UK, Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Greece, Japan, etc, etc.
The same systems that make America "Socialist" in it's Democracy would make all those other countries and more Socialist, when they are clearly, very much not.

At best these so called experts (still not presented any, so I am starting to think they're all Socialists themselves which leads me to also think that it's jut confirmation bias) are using the confused term I alluded to in my earlier post.

The point is you're the one who has to convince us, essentially the public in this example, your stance is true.

What exact, and I want you to talk and say the exact breakdown of how exactly the USA is remotely Socialist in it's Democracy.
break it down point by point.
I want you to try and actually convince me instead of saying "but experts".
Anti-vaxxers have their own "experts" too.
Flat-Earthers have their own "experts".
Religions have their own "experts".
Until you actually give me good and actual breakdowns then I am going to treat your experts the same way.

And no, I don't want links upon links to papers I want you to explain it, because if it is so right then explaining it should be a doddle and not an issue.
I don't care what GAC says I don't care if you don't want to bother because of Theo hating you, you're not talking to them, you're talking to me.
Convince me.

[Augustei]

Ok, boys. Whatever you say.

Clearly you laymen know more than peer-reviewed experts on the matter.

Clearly the peer-reviewed sources disagree

Socialism never took off in the United States. It really isn't a socialist country.

[Mobius_118]

So you want me to type up what amounts to an academic paper.

Great.

[Augustei]

You really really really fucking need to learn your terms.

We're not even a SOCIAL DEMOCRACY like the Scandinavian countries are. We're a representative Republic with a government that provides a handful of services.

That isn't fucking socialist. The means of production haven't been seized. Huge tracks of the economy haven't been completely nationalized. People aren't starving.

It was inevitable that when Bernie went up in the primaries and declared himself a democratic socialist, that a bunch of people would start misusing the term as he did, confusing democratic socialism for social democracy. Now we have all these college kids calling themselves democratic socialists and not knowing wtf social democracy even is and how Bernie's views align much more with it than democratic socialism.

Though even those that have educated themselves on the terms still misuse them to a degree, since we have all these followers of social democracy saying they don't support full blown socialism, when social democracy is intended as a path to eventual socialism and has been since inception.

[Augustei]

So you want me to type up what amounts to an academic paper.

Great.

No but you were citing peer reviewed experts as the basis for your claims, as I mentioned earlier - the opinions of experts mean little unless its in a dissertation or peer reviewed academic source paper. So if you want to base your claims on argumentum ad verecundiam you need to provide your own peer reviewed academic sources (not blogs) to back them up. No need to write your own, just go find one. Unless your saying this is your own opinion and that of a few professors you've spoken to, but not undeniable fact.

[TTTX]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHPz9tOE-7Q

[TheodoricFriede]

So you want me to type up what amounts to an academic paper.

Great.

No but you were citing peer reviewed experts as the basis for your claims, as I mentioned earlier - the opinions of experts mean little unless its in a dissertation or peer reviewed academic source paper. So if you want to base your claims on argumentum ad verecundiam you need to provide your own peer reviewed academic sources (not blogs) to back them up. No need to write your own, just go find one. Unless your saying this is your own opinion and that of a few professors you've spoken to, but not undeniable fact.

Also you aren't an 'expert'.

[Mazder]

So you want me to type up what amounts to an academic paper.

Great.

No I don't.
I want you to talk to me as a person.
Don't give me fucking papers, don't give me the "do your research" tripe.
Talk to me like you actually give a shit about convincing me, genuinely and not as if you're trying to win a pissing contest of trying to be competitive.
It's not a case of "who's da smarterest" it's "talk to me like a human and not a polling number".

[Raga]

Why the specific attachment to the term "socialist democracy" Mobius and not "social democracy?"

The difference between these is as follows:

Democratic socialism advocate for full-blown socialism, which is to say collective ownership of the means of production and the eradication of private property. The only notable difference between this and full-blown socialism is that it's not revolutionary. It wants to gain control via democratic means and not through revolution, and ostensibly would govern through democratic means once it attained power. It is inane because there is literally no example of a population ever freely choosing the eradication of private property. Socialism, true socialism, has only ever been successfully enacted by violence.

Social democracy means the retention of the market economy, private property, and some redistribution to address the most grievous social problems caused by the uneven distribution of wealth. it has been freely chosen over and over and over by citizens in capitalist countries. And while intellectuals might intend for it to be a bridge to pure socialism, they will never successfully implement this without violence because the population will never voluntarily vote to eradicate all their private property.

[Mazder]

Why the specific attachment to the term "socialist democracy" Mobius and not "social democracy?"

I have a feeling that it's because the current Democratic trends are spouting "Socialist Democracy" for their campaigns.

[Raga]

I would also put forward that a healthy "socialism" if you need one American example is Elizabeth Warren. She's explicitly pro market and anti crony capitalism.

[Augustei]

So you want me to type up what amounts to an academic paper.

Great.

No but you were citing peer reviewed experts as the basis for your claims, as I mentioned earlier - the opinions of experts mean little unless its in a dissertation or peer reviewed academic source paper. So if you want to base your claims on argumentum ad verecundiam you need to provide your own peer reviewed academic sources (not blogs) to back them up. No need to write your own, just go find one. Unless your saying this is your own opinion and that of a few professors you've spoken to, but not undeniable fact.

Also you aren't an 'expert'.

Nope, nor would I claim to be. I can cite them however, as I did.
I wouldn't consider anyone an expert until they're published and peer reviewed. Most I can claim is some college qualifications in Botany and (almost) Criminology and Criminal Justice.

Honestly though anyone who brings up their qualifications in debates, in my experience is usually only doing so to bolster a poor argument.

[TheodoricFriede]

[
Nope, nor would I claim to be. I can cite them however, as I did.

Wasn't talking to you.

Merely adding to what you said.

[TheodoricFriede]

While I find this to be a less compelling argument, in the interest of fairness, this is the followup to the New York Times predictive articleI posted a little while ago.

How Trump Lost Re-election in 2020

This writer seems to be banking on the idea that voters will simply be tired of Trump by 2020. Perhaps this is valid, as I am pretty tired of him already.

[Mazder]

Honestly though anyone who brings up their qualifications in debates, in my experience is usually only doing so to bolster a poor argument.

[TTTX]

This writer seems to be banking on the idea that voters will simply be tired of Trump by 2020. Perhaps this is valid, as I am pretty tired of him already.

I think that depends on other side, if the left continue down the path of identity politics, everything is sexist and racist, bombard people how "bad" Trump is and globalization then I think Trump have a good chance of winning in 2020.

[Raga]

Who wins will depend on two things in my opinion:

1. How well the economy keeps doing (Good favors Trump)
2. Voter mobilization (which default also favors Trump whose base is large and still fired up, Democrats have to get some magical sweetspot with some Obama ideal candidate or else a huge chunk of the "everything but the kitchen sink" coalition stays home)

Wild cards which could disrupt this:

1. Some enormous financial crisis of the 2008 variety
2. Actual unambiguous evidence of Russia collusion

[Vol]

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/us/n ... tw-nytimes

The people who write and push these beliefs are tumors. They say we need to use the power of government to forcibly reduce Caucasian population concentrations, because something something diversity is only good for the economy and some immigrants might otherwise be forced to integrate into the majority culture.

Mixing pot? Nah, a bland, pointless, spiritual void of common culture, then ethnic enclaves for everyone else. This is why "everyone's equal, treat everyone the same" fell out of style by the way, it's inherently incompatible with the concept of the melanin deficient being an inferior race.

[Raga]

Well, that's a good way to fast track those states becoming Trumpian. I don't remember where I saw it, but I saw some data the other day which basically tied staunch Trump support, especially in swing areas, not to overall diversity levels but to where diversification is happening the *fastest.* Some of those places are still 80% white or whatever, but the key demographic change is that they were 90% white ten years ago. Meanwhile places that went from 60% to 55% white or something over 20 years are less militant, even though objectively they are the ones who are actually dealing with notable levels of diversity.

[Mobius_118]

Turns out not even Koch can bullshit their way out of Medicare for all.

It would save us 2 trillion dollars. Go figure.

[Mobius_118]

North Korea building ICBMs.

So much for the dealmaker.

[Raga]

Any Europeans with a take on Viktor Orban? I keep hearing he's the left hand of darkness but various interviews with him make him seem pretty normal.

[TTTX]

Any Europeans with a take on Viktor Orban? I keep hearing he's the left hand of darkness but various interviews with him make him seem pretty normal.

I think he just goes against the narrative and calls out the EU were it is needed, which is refreshing when you consider how much the EU country politicians kisses EU ass.

[Mazder]

Any Europeans with a take on Viktor Orban? I keep hearing he's the left hand of darkness but various interviews with him make him seem pretty normal.

I think he just goes against the narrative and calls out the EU were it is needed, which is refreshing when you consider how much the EU country politicians kisses EU ass.

Him and the Polish Minister are their black sheep right now.

[Raga]

Wow...just wow...

Apparently this guy is for real: http://jonmcnaughton.com/

He is *not* a leftist parody. He is legit. However, with him around why would leftists ever need to resort to parody?

[Alienmorph]

So, we're having an escalation of hate crimes against people of color, one of our ministers spoken against "non-conventional families" aka he bashed LGBT families, our internal affairs minister is more worried to kick immigrants out of the country and to bring back the habit of having crucifixes in schools and other public offices than fighting mafia and corruption, several members of our govenment are no-vax and want to approve a law that forces people who did vaxinate their kids to keep them in quarantine for a couple weeks because THEY are the risk for public health. And there's talks of canning the laws against fascists apologysts and hatespeech.

Do you know the whole shtick about living a racist and bigoted society that the SJWs in America loooove to use to ask for attention and feel sorry about themselves? Yeah, here it's actually becoming a real thing. And the staggering majority of people in Italy think it's all for the better.

I fucking hate my country.

[Raga]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ng/566846/

I saw something on this Jeong chick and it did make me wonder: why is it so often Asians doing this? That white-hating Bioware staffer a while back was Asian as well if I remember correctly.

[Vol]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/08/the-utility-of-white-bashing/566846/

I saw something on this Jeong chick and it did make me wonder: why is it so often Asians doing this? That white-hating Bioware staffer a while back was Asian as well if I remember correctly.

Shot in the dark, they want the power that comes from being a helpless minority victim, but aren't entitled to it because Asians appear to do better than the majority on average. So they double down on the crusade for credibility. That, and the people who are remotely qualified to get into positions of influence where they can preach bigotry are generally going to come from good backgrounds, where education and financial success would be likely. Again, Asians, Jews, whites, which is why their problems get so much action, and the all the sound and fury over black problems has led to nothing. Enough white trannies and their chasers start screaming, laws get changed, society gets engineered. Yet a larger volume of work on the plight of the black man, and it's business as usual.

Also there's a 99% chance that the NYT bitch has a white boyfriend.

Semi-related, but reading an article some clickbait hag wrote up by trawling incel forums for ideas, the inability of professional media to actually refute incel memes is almost quaint. "The 80/20 rule (20% of men get the vast majority of the pussy, 80% get scraps or none) is wrong because 59% of American boys and 56% aren't virgins when they leave highschool!" This should be an easy concept to deflate, yet, they fuck it up.

[Raga]

From uber progressive website Mother Jones: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/20 ... migration/

Relevant bit: "The proposal could affect as many as 47 percent of noncitizens currently in the U.S., according to an analysis by the Migration Policy Institute of an earlier leaked draft of the rule change. (In contrast, only 3 percent of noncitizens are affected by the rule as it currently stands.) That’s partly because the proposal would also allow DHS to consider benefits received by a person’s dependents. For example, immigrants could be penalized if they have children who use food stamps—even if those children are U.S. citizens."

So that's the first thing like a tacit admission of the fact that a fuckton of immigrants use welfare and aid services from a progressive source that I've seen. (Because the numbers they use tend to explicitly ignore government services immigrants get via citizen family members - the money a woman gets for her 3 year old US anchor baby as an example).

[FrozenShadow]

So, Trump and his lead government strikes again.

Their greatest magnificent idea is to allow the use of Aspestos in construction. Something that any sane scientific study has labelled as health risk. Not only that, Trump must have done great deal here as the greatest Aspestos mines are in Russia. So, that makes nice trading there.

Also, it seems China had now joined "tariff war" and targeted several key US export products.

[Raga]

Relevant to that democratic socialism vs social democracy debate the other day:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... sm/566531/

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... es/566528/

[Vol]

The NFL protests are continuing in the pre-season. NFL backed off their own penalties for doing so they made up during the break. Really is a good demonstration of how the rich old men who run the league aren't necessarily wielding absolute power, when every one of them would love it if the millionaires they employed would stop. I imagine the effect on ratings would be negligible at best however, since the people who would refuse to watch over that would have already done so.

[Mazder]

The NFL protests are continuing in the pre-season. NFL backed off their own penalties for doing so they made up during the break. Really is a good demonstration of how the rich old men who run the league aren't necessarily wielding absolute power, when every one of them would love it if the millionaires they employed would stop. I imagine the effect on ratings would be negligible at best however, since the people who would refuse to watch over that would have already done so.

The NFL players protests are a bullshit publicity stunt to get them more public spotlight (like they fucking needed it...)
If they truly wanted to actually do something they'd spend their million on building up black communities with opportunities and jobs and shit like that, not having a bit of a kneel while the anthem is played.
Oh whoodidoo you're disrespecting the American national Anthem by kneeling...I am sure that really helps show how to fix the problem instead of just draws the spotlight to you.