Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Mobius_118]

He lost the general election. By 3 million votes. OH BUT THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE LOLOLOL Yeah, the electoral college that can be bought. And was.

His approval is currently at an average of 39%. That's about the population of total trump supporters, and that number will shrink. You guys basically went "I don't care about rape and corruption." You've announced it to the world.

The economy is about due for a crash because of his policies. Sure, the corporations have bagged all the tax benefits, but none of it is being put back into their companies, just their bank accounts.

You're in the minority, shitbag. There's a reason the world thinks trump is a joke and is going to ruin the United States for possible decades.

You have become everything you accused President Obama of doing. trump and his supporters have made the US a laughing stock in the world. Congratulations, you fucking idiots.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I genuinely believe that you believe all of that Mobius.

I also genuinely believe that all of your friends and allies believe the same thing.

I also know that your view on reality has been warped at least since you were infected with TDS. Probably before but it didn't become obvious to everyone until then.

As an addendum fuck what the cucks in the EU think.

[Mobius_118]

Wait, so facts are a belief now? Ok.

You're trash, GAC. Take yourself out.

[TheodoricFriede]

Talos the mighty! Talos the unerring! Talos the unassailable! To you we give praise! We are but maggots, writhing in the filth of our own corruption! While you have ascended from the dung of mortality, and now walk among the stars! But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you." Aye, love. Love! Even as man, great Talos cherished us. For he saw in us, in each of us, the future of Skyrim! The future of Tamriel! And there it is, friends! The ugly truth! We are the children of man! Talos is the true god of man! Ascended from flesh, to rule the realm of spirit! The very idea is inconceivable to our Elven overlords! Sharing the heavens with us? With man? Ha! They can barely tolerate our presence on earth! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very liiiiiiiives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people! So rise up! Rise up, children of the Empire! Rise up, Stormcloaks! Embrace the word of mighty Talos, he who is both man and Divine! For we are the children of man! And we shall inherit both the heavens and the earth! And we, not the Elves or their toadies, will rule Skyrim! Forever! Terrible and powerful Talos! We, your unworthy servants, give praise! For only through your grace and benevolence may we truly reach enlightenment! And deserve our praise you do, for we are one! Ere you ascended and the Eight became Nine, you walked among us, great Talos, not as god, but as man! Trust in me, Whiterun! Trust in the words of Heimskr! For I am the chosen of Talos! I alone have been anointed by the Ninth to spread his holy word!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Talos the mighty! Talos the unerring! Talos the unassailable! To you we give praise! We are but maggots, writhing in the filth of our own corruption! While you have ascended from the dung of mortality, and now walk among the stars! But you were once man! Aye! And as man, you said, "Let me show you the power of Talos Stormcrown, born of the North, where my breath is long winter. I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you." Aye, love. Love! Even as man, great Talos cherished us. For he saw in us, in each of us, the future of Skyrim! The future of Tamriel! And there it is, friends! The ugly truth! We are the children of man! Talos is the true god of man! Ascended from flesh, to rule the realm of spirit! The very idea is inconceivable to our Elven overlords! Sharing the heavens with us? With man? Ha! They can barely tolerate our presence on earth! Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very liiiiiiiives? And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people! So rise up! Rise up, children of the Empire! Rise up, Stormcloaks! Embrace the word of mighty Talos, he who is both man and Divine! For we are the children of man! And we shall inherit both the heavens and the earth! And we, not the Elves or their toadies, will rule Skyrim! Forever! Terrible and powerful Talos! We, your unworthy servants, give praise! For only through your grace and benevolence may we truly reach enlightenment! And deserve our praise you do, for we are one! Ere you ascended and the Eight became Nine, you walked among us, great Talos, not as god, but as man! Trust in me, Whiterun! Trust in the words of Heimskr! For I am the chosen of Talos! I alone have been anointed by the Ninth to spread his holy word!

-Mobius 2nd century of the 4th Era

[TheodoricFriede]

I can't honestly say that it wasn't also directed to you.

I dont particularly want to start anything with you. We have found a way to co-exist, and I am happy about that, but both you and Mobius veer so far into extremes that it is laughable.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I can't honestly say that it wasn't also directed to you.

I dont particularly want to start anything with you. We have found a way to co-exist, and I am happy about that, but both you and Mobius veer so far into extremes that it is laughable.

I veer into extreme opinions because it is entertaining. I've rarely met a position I wouldn't adopt for an argument to give myself some jollies.

He genuinely believes everything. Literally everything he posts.

[Mobius_118]

It's hard not to when it's backed up by observable fact and reality.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

It's hard not to when it's backed up by observable fact and reality.

>That statement
>Thinks the Electoral fucking College was rigged

Uh huh. Sure it is pumpkin.

You are a socially just and righteous progressive paladin. You will be the one to defeat the evil Mega-Hitler Trump. You are the savior this world needs and deserves. For only you possess the iron sense of purpose and fanatical conviction required.

Hail the Progressive Man. Hail his people.

[Mobius_118]

Well, think about it. The electoral college was the only way to get southern states to sign the Constitution, so they can hold onto their slaves. It didn't allow slaves to vote, but counted each slave as 3/5's of a person. This allowed the lesser populated southern states to get more electoral votes. After the Civil War, we did away with the slave part, but now we have states that have a low population, but their vote is weighed more than a vote from, say, California.

A red vote is worthless in California, and a blue vote is worthless in Texas during a Presidential election.

You don't think that's rigged? It's been rigged from the beginning, kiddo. Every other election is done by popular vote, so what's the problem? Oh, right. The GOP, your masters, would never sit in the White House again until they come up with something better than what they've been giving since the 70's.

Remember, your little boy playing president lost the general election by nearly 3 million votes.

Clinton: 65,853,516
trump: 62,984,825

For the retarded, that's 2,868,691 million people in favor of Hillary Clinton.

Just remember, had it been a fair election, ran just like every other election, trump would be sitting in his ivory tower, shitting in his golden toilet, tweeting like a maggot, just like he is now. Just not in charge of anything. And we'd be better off.

With my VA benefits being taken apart, by college education benefits being grifted, my military paycheck actually shrinking, and the way you soyboys run around acting like hot shit, means that we're heading for a collapse that is directly every republican, libertarian, and trump's fault.

All because 200 years ago some southern folk didn't want to be marginalized by the North, and have their slavery practices abolished.

You didn't read any of that, did you? Facts are too much for you.

[TheodoricFriede]

...You need professional help.

[Mobius_118]

Seriously? I just quoted historical fact.

[TheodoricFriede]

You twisted a historical fact to fit a lunatic argument.

I can do it too.

Ancient Egyptians had a female Pharaoh therefor ancient Egypt was more accepting of women in power then we are now.

[Mobius_118]

Hardly. It's an observable phenomenon, if you actually care to look. You're too busy harboring a great hatred for me to give the right side a chance.

[TheodoricFriede]

Tell me about the chemical trails next.

[Mobius_118]

That's more a GAC level of conspiracy theory.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Mobius dear. Let's be absolutely clear. Had Hilary won the Electoral College and lost the popular vote you and the media would have praised it to the skies as just and fair and an important check on the evils of the masses.

You have Trump Derangement Syndrome. Perhaps the most severe case of it I've ever seen.

That's not even mentioning that you and the Media were ABSOLUTELY certain that our elections were safe from tampering... until your candidate lost. You are a sore loser. Keep it up.

[Mobius_118]

Don't you believe in the Birther movement?

Hey man, I don't shit myself over a red coffee cup or a tan suit or a skin color or paying my taxes.

Watching you libertarians have angry poops over any little thing is hilarious. By the way, it's quite telling that you equate getting angry over egregious law breaking as "TDS".

You pissboys were up in arms over a child sex ring under a pizza place. That didn't exist.

I could go on for days about how nuts you really are. But me getting pissed about treason, corruption, and flat out law breaking is TDS. You're a fucking joke.

[TheodoricFriede]

You just made the claim that the Electoral College was bribed.

Its you Mobius. Its you.

[Mobius_118]

Oh, you got me. It's not like there's a concept called Faithless Electors or anything that could be bribed in any such way. No sir, not at all.

Trump is unfit to serve as a busboy. His history proves that. But people are willing to commit absolutely stupid things for the sake of a little money, so it's not going to be a surprise when all the voter fraud that the GOP commits gets exposed and we find out some things.

[TheodoricFriede]

NiNe ElEvEn WaS aN iNsIdE jOoOoB

OOoooOOOoo

[Mobius_118]

That's a GAC level conspiracy theory.

[TheodoricFriede]

Except its you! Its just you!

You are the only one spouting conspiracy theories!

You're like Don Quixote trying to smite windmills because in your delusions you see giants. Except Don Quixote actually managed to be both endearing and sympathetic whereas interacting with you is like sandpaper on the urethra.

[Mobius_118]

So you take offense to fact-based arguments while GAC the shit-spewing, oligarch supporting corporate whore who would shoot you in the face for a nickel and fuck your wife for free can basically freebase conspiracy theories at will?

Got it.

[Mazder]

Funny how this rhetoric spin definitely only seems to come from the left these days, especially when it was a practice of the right wing for so long. It's almost as if they've gone so far left they've come full circle to right wing again...

And it's funny to see how the Electoral College is only failing when it doesn't elect a Democrat.
Hell, yesterday I saw a CNN story as dad was thumping through channels that was going on about China meddling in the elections apparently. If it's not one boogeyman it's the other. It's never they're not as in touch as they thought, it's never them being wrong, ever. Nah. Must be everyone else that's wrong...

The main difference why people find it easier to talk to GAC, even when disagreeing with him, is that he doesn't shut you down immediately unless you provoke him with it first. There is an invite to open dialogue and when opinions are opinions they're treated as such.
Allegory and general trash talk are accepted as not being srs all the time among a serious topic.
With you we can't do anything as once a teensy thing is made that gets your panties in a twist you fly off the handle, only to later claim you weren't when it is plainly obvious for all to see.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Don't you believe in the Birther movement?

Hey man, I don't shit myself over a red coffee cup or a tan suit or a skin color or paying my taxes.

Watching you libertarians have angry poops over any little thing is hilarious. By the way, it's quite telling that you equate getting angry over egregious law breaking as "TDS".

You pissboys were up in arms over a child sex ring under a pizza place. That didn't exist.

I could go on for days about how nuts you really are. But me getting pissed about treason, corruption, and flat out law breaking is TDS. You're a fucking joke.

1. No that's silly.
2. I have no idea what you're waffling about.
3. You do have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
4. Spirit Cooking was creepy as shit and disgusting. Not a child trafficking ring.

Literally none of the things you tried to lay at my feet are true about me. I have consistently said I think you believe everything you say. That's what makes you fucking nuts.

[Mobius_118]

I have the facts to back me up. You just ignore it and faff on and on about how your pissboy king is superior, which facts show that, surprise, he isn't.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Then you link to some very pro-left outlet and treat it as gospel.

You're not fooling anyone here anymore Mobius. A little after the election I made the prediction that it would be easy to forecast your outrage by watching whatever the media narrative of the day was. Chances are you'll be parroting the same lines either the same night or the next day.

Even when the narratives contradict earlier narratives. Even when everyone who isn't in your cult knows the narrative is bullshit. You keep pressing on because your world view demands it. Trump HAS to be Hitler. The people who disagree with you HAVE to be evil. There can be no rest. No compromise. You are a fanatic, and now everyone else can see it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0IBRXQlrrQ

[Mobius_118]

Reality is left leaning, son.

But if linking the actual law is considered left leaning, then you're certifiable.

But I do so want to hear your continued denial of reality in and of itself. So entertaining.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Reality is left leaning, son.

It really. Really doesn't. Then again you think that a country having roads makes it socialist. So no one, literally no one is surprised by you.

[Mobius_118]

Speaking of GAC twisting the facts...

Sorry son, your crowing about lower unemployment is meaningless.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Watch the video dear. That's also accounted for.

[Mobius_118]

Suuuure it was.

You're an intellectually dishonest scumbag. This kind of shit is exactly the reason why the failed republican group, the libertarians, need to be weeded out. All you fuckfaces do is lie and bitch about taxes.

[Mobius_118]

American Bar Association is reopening it's evaluation on Kavanaugh.

They should disbar him. He's unfit for the SCOTUS. He's unfit to be a trier of the law. He's unfit for even being a law clerk.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Nobody outside of your cult cares Mobius.

[Mobius_118]

The American Bar Association cares, boyo.

If you had any shred of care about the judicial process you'd care too. Oh wait.

[Augustei]

Everytime i come back to this place Mobius is popping blood vessels at something Cheesecake said about how Mobius gonna Mobius, this place is hilarious XP

[Augustei]

All that time rigging the primaries against Bernie and that darn electoral college got in her way. Wamp wamp

[Augustei]

Suuuure it was.

You're an intellectually dishonest scumbag. This kind of shit is exactly the reason why the failed republican group, the libertarians, need to be weeded out. All you fuckfaces do is lie and bitch about taxes.

You say that, but Rand Paul despite some of his wacky ideas, is one of the few good Republican senators in congress. Certainly more tolerable than many of the others

[Mobius_118]

I'm hardly the rage monster.

It's just quite irritating to see someone who praises the destruction of his best interests for the lulz, although if he pulled the trigger I wouldn't shed a tear. One less useless libertarian in the world.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

My best interests are being served quite well as is dear. My taxes are lower, no major wars have erupted and people like you are constantly down with the TDS.

The last few years have been amazing.

[Mobius_118]

Well that much is obvious, you're a selfish corporate whore.

As long as the poor stay poor, right?

[Raga]

The electoral college was the only way to get southern states to sign the Constitution, so they can hold onto their slaves. It didn't allow slaves to vote, but counted each slave as 3/5's of a person. This allowed the lesser populated southern states to get more electoral votes.

I know your hard-on hatred for the South burns with the fire of a jihadi blowing himself up in a crowd, but please read about the Virginia Plan and the New Jersey Plan at the Constitutional Convention and note the difference therein. See who was in fact in favor of representation based on population and who was hung up on an assertion that every state should get an equal say regardless of population.

[Mobius_118]

The electoral college was the only way to get southern states to sign the Constitution, so they can hold onto their slaves. It didn't allow slaves to vote, but counted each slave as 3/5's of a person. This allowed the lesser populated southern states to get more electoral votes.

I know your hard-on hatred for the South burns with the fire of a jihadi blowing himself up in a crowd, but please read about the Virginia Plan and the New Jersey Plan at the Constitutional Convention and note the difference therein. See who was in fact in favor of representation based on population and who was hung up on an assertion that every state should get an equal say regardless of population.

Quoted directly from the source, but I'll give it a look.

Also, while I do hate the south, y'all doing a great job killing each other down there by yourselves.

If we need to do another march to the Atlantic, we'd be doing the south a favor.

[TheodoricFriede]

Look he's watched at least half of a YouTube video on this subject, I'm pretty sure he knows what hes talking about.

[Augustei]

I havn't been following the whole Kavanaugh thing except for seeing headlines and small bits and pieces of info. Seems there was shit flinging from all quarters, sitting on allegations, a bunch of seemingly fabrication, a rushed timetable. But as to Kavanaugh himself, I learned all i needed to know about that guy when I read that Trump picked him to appease Bush era Republicans.

Still it seems that after 2 straight years of getting their arses handed to them, the democrats have learned.....Pretty much nothing, they're just going back to their losing strategy of "Look how bad those evil bastards are" with little focus on what they're actually going to do.

[Raga]

Kamala Harris actually said something simple and workable the other day. Somebody asked her what she would say to Trump about whatever inane rubbish he insulted Ford with. Her response was "stop being mean." Seriously, just do that. Stop ranting about misogyny, racism, etc. etc. Say only "stop being an asshole" and then proceed to talk about, you know, policy, especially economic policy. If you insist on making it about tribal politics, most people will pick their tribe, regardless of how stupid the leadership of said tribe is.

[Raga]

I don't normally get offended by this kind of stuff. Exasperated, sure, but not offended. This actually offends and outrages me:

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt ... %20journal

This is not a statue in a park dedicated to some fictitious caricature of the "Marble Man" Robert E. Lee. This is not some nauseating monument in front of a courthouse to the "Spirit of the Confederacy." This is a *tombstone.* A marker where actual men's bodies are interred, men who were PoWs who died far from their homes, men who may have been drafted (yes, the Confederacy also had a draft) and had no real choice about where they found themselves. It is not glorifying what they did in life or what they stood for. Murderers and rapists get tombstones.

How is this any different than Nazis ripping down tombstones in Jewish cemeteries to erase their very memory?

[Raga]

Seriously? I just quoted historical fact.

I wanted to dissect this a bit earlier, but I was at my dad's all week in the middle of nowhere with no internet and crap cell signal so I was limited to intermittent browsing and short posts only. This will probably be long so apologies for that. Markup quotes are from the article. Quotes in just quotation marks are from this book which was nominated for the Pulitzer and comes from the extremely prestigious "Oxford History of the United States" series, and which irony of ironies I happened to read last week when I had not much else to do between hunting excursions.

But the deepest political divisions in America have always run not between big and small states, but between the north and the south, and between the coasts and the interior.

The North/South division assumed intense earnestness only after the invention of the cotton gin in 1794, which made plantation style production of cotton wildly profitable. Before that, the most profitable plantation crop was sugar cane which was grown almost entirely in the Sugar Islands (Martinique, Guadalupe, St. Lucia, Jamaica, etc.) because the climate of the original 13 colonies isn't conducive to it. The only notable exceptions to this are tobacco grown in Virginia and rice and indigo grown in South Carolina. Still, these crops were a speck compared both to the contemporary trade in sugar and its derivatives molasses and rum and also to the future production of cotton.

The division between "the coasts and the interior" as it pertains to the period of the Constitutional Convention is *precisely* the conflict between large and small states because small states were almost invariably coastal states with defined western borders (Rhode Island, Connecticut) and large states tended to have large inland back countries they wanted to fill up with people (Virginia, Pennsylvania), some with highly nebulous borders based on the old royal charters which claimed the colony stretched all the way to the Pacific Ocean.

From the book (page 647 of the ebook edition) "Roughly speaking, businessmen in Pennsylvania and Massachusetts shared the desires of Virginian and Carolinian planters that representation be according to population. These states, especially Virginia and Pennsylvania, had a good deal of undeveloped land to develop, land which once put into use would add to their political strength in a Congress representative of population."

At the Philadelphia convention, the visionary Pennsylvanian James Wilson proposed direct national election of the president. But the savvy Virginian James Madison responded that such a system would prove unacceptable to the South

Another handy quote from Madison in Federalist No. 10:

"The smaller the society, the fewer probably will be the distinct parties and interests composing it; the fewer the distinct parties and interests, the more frequently will a majority be found of the same party; and the smaller the number of individuals composing a majority, and the smaller the compass within which they are placed, the more easily will they concert and execute their plans of oppression. Extend the sphere and you take in a greater variety of parties and interests; you make it less probable that a majority of the whole will have a common motive to invade the rights of other citizens; or if such common motive exists, it will be more difficult for all who feel it to discover their own strength and to act in unison with each other."

This is not a guy trying to set up a permanent center of power in any one place, people, or faction. That is, this not a guy trying to engineer a system that guarantees Virginia is dominant in all things whatever. This is the opposite of that, in fact. It is the electoral college doing precisely what he says it's trying to do: make it impossible for a dominant majority to get its way 100% of the time.

Virginia emerged as the big winner—the California of the Founding era—with 12 out of a total of 91 electoral votes allocated by the Philadelphia Constitution, more than a quarter of the 46 needed to win an election in the first round.

They also overwhelmingly dominated actual presidential candidates. There's a reason that one of Virginia's nicknames is "The Birthplace of Presidents." But this is a product of something Virginia already was, not something that it wasn't that it manufactured for itself via the electoral college. Seriously, let me run a list of household name level "Founding Fathers" to make a point here:

George Washington - Virginia
Thomas Jefferson - Virginia
James Madison - Virginia
Benjamin Franklin - Pennsylvania
John Jay - New York
John Adams - Massachusetts
Alexander Hamilton (kinda sorta New York, technically from the West Indies, he didn't move to the States until he was a grown man)

Noticing a pattern there?

From the book (page 624): "None had contributed more to the Revolution than Virginia. The credit for the state's remarkable performance must be given to an elite, the gentry, an uncommon group which led Virginia into the Revolution and continued to lead afterward. The gentry drew the support of small Virginia planters early in the century and held it through merit - not coercion."

American moral, legal, & political thought (much to the ongoing chagrin of avowed secularists) overwhelmingly has its origins in 3 places: the Puritans of Massachusetts, the Quakers of Pennsylvania, and the landed gentry of Virginia, who were ironically the most secular of the lot though still firm believers in Providence.

Also, in reference to your original statement that the 3/5th compromise was something formulated for the electoral college as the only means to get the Southern States to ratify the constitution, this is simply not true (and is also claimed nowhere in the article you linked.) It was formulated as part of the so-called "Connecticut Compromise." The explicit purpose of the Connecticut Compromise was keeping small states (mostly northern) from walking away and refusing to ratify, and the chief source of the conflict was over the legislature and not how to chose the executive. The Virginia Plan (which was basically just a slightly reformed version of the Virginia State Constitution) preferred a bicameral legislature with the lower house chosen by population and the upper house being roughly analogous to the House of Lords, chosen by appointment or wealth or some other such qualification. It was preferred by the larger states. The New Jersey Plan, favored by smaller states, wanted a unicameral legislature with each state having equal say regardless of population. The Compromise was to have a lower house chosen by population and an upper house where everybody had equal say.

Now, is it true that because the entire Constitution is explicitly engineered to prevent majorities from being able to get their way all the time, that the South was able to constantly frustrate and check abolitionist impulses in the North and safeguard slavery until the Civil War? Yes.

However, it's not true that any given feature of the Constitution that allows a minority to safeguard some particular thing from the majority was put there in the beginning for the explicit purpose of safeguarding that thing.

To be clear, there *are* explicit components of the Constitution meant to safeguard the institution of slavery (the 3/5ths compromise being one of them). There were also explicit exemptions for taxation on slaves and for the protection of the slave trade, at least for the immediate future. However, it is blatantly false that the entire document was explicitly engineered in such a way as to give slave-holding states unchecked domination of everybody else so they could safeguard slavery forever. This is conspiracy level thinking. This is looking back into the past and trying to force it to mean what you want it to mean to serve some modern agenda, and not trying to figure out what it *actually* means.