Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Mobius_118]

Dismantling Western powers has been a Russian goal for nearly 80 years.

Thanks to trump, Putin is finally accomplishing his goal.

[Alienmorph]

Dismantling Western powers has been a Russian goal for nearly 80 years.

Thanks to trump, Putin is finally accomplishing his goal.

Give us some credit Mob, Trump is not the only cretin in charge currently.

[FrozenShadow]

Yeah, I also hope for the best, fear for the worst. And increased military budgets thanks to Trump and populism+ current right wing popularity is not good combination. Nothing good had ever come out of this combo.

only really happens if extremist people are in charge and it's not as easy as it was in the 20th century thanks to information is a lot more difficult to hide.

Really? Just look at what happened in US with Trump.

All it takes is for a charismatic guy(s) to raise up and give a voice to the problems that many people are silently feeling. And by giving voice to these problems, this person supporters starts to blindly believe everything their "chosen" leader says. Even those opposing the guy(s) will change their opinion or simply turn a blind eye for some matters, if they feel like they would get something out from this person.

This is exactly how 20th century dictators rouse in power and the same basic principle happened again in US in last Election. The only bright side in all of this is that Trump is incompetent fool. If Trump would've even smidgen of competence or even willingness to listen competent people flocking around him.... he would be even more dangerous than Hitler was at his time, considering the general power of US.

[TTTX]

Really? Just look at what happened in US with Trump.

All it takes is for a charismatic guy(s) to raise up and give a voice to the problems that many people are silently feeling. And by giving voice to these problems, this person supporters starts to blindly believe everything their "chosen" leader says. Even those opposing the guy(s) will change their opinion or simply turn a blind eye for some matters, if they feel like they would get something out from this person.

This is exactly how 20th century dictators rouse in power and the same basic principle happened again in US in last Election. The only bright side in all of this is that Trump is incompetent fool. If Trump would've even smidgen of competence or even willingness to listen competent people flocking around him.... he would be even more dangerous than Hitler was at his time, considering the general power of US.

I don't consider Trump a Dictator, I consider him a narcissistic asshole who loves himself and his country a lot.

First of all Hillary and her followers did quite a lot of damage to herself, her campaign (like making people believe the peppe the frog meme being hate symbol, a long with a video being released with her collapsing do to illness, not taking Trump seriously, etc.) and if she had done a lot more work (like campaigning more then where she did) she would have been President.

Second of all the left is also filled with those people you are saying are following Trump, who are sexist, racist, socialist (in a bad way) and of course hypocrites so the other side isn't better then the guy who is acting President. From my perspective they are far worse then Trump is and I don't even care who is president in the USA, because my own politicians have been so incompetent for well over a decade that I am sick and tired of politics in general.

Well we have already had more dangerous people then Hitler, like Stalin, Castro and so on.

[Vol]

Front page story in the local rag, multi-page story about how NJ schools just aren't diverse enough. They say we should have demographic proportionality in schools, irrelevant of the local population. So busing in blacks from Camden because you have too many whites in a more affluent area. This is apparently a cure for the racism of enclaves of ethnicity affecting school makeups in the communities they run in.

While obviously, as a white person, the concept of being told that too many of us in one place leads to schools that do too well and need diversity to be "fair" strikes me as bigoted evil, another point occurred to me.

So in the eyes of these petitioners, that want white schools to be not white (The author left out the minorities that do well from the screed), they appear to be saying that blacks and Hispanics are incapable of academic success without a larger white population to sustain them. That concentrated Caucasians produce good schools up to a certain point of diversity dilution. The woman quoted as suing the state so her kids can get into said honky schools appeared to want roughly what the statewide demographics look like, which is about 68% white, and 58% (as of 2012) if you count only European descended. So if we take her lawsuit as their ideal, you need about 6 white kids for every 4 of everyone else, and surely the school system will be better.

That's their complaint. They bring up a school that's 90% non-white as a symbol of inequality and failure, then point to schools that are 80%+ white as needing some of the students from the former school to not be racist. So in the context of the article, what is the value of the brown students then? Because they're saying having too many of them in one school means academic failure, therefore white schools must take them on to elevate them, then how is that not effectively the white man's burden from a different angle?

It's a fucked up mindset to start a movement and push a big story that boils down to white children should not be allowed to be around too many white children, or it's bad for brown children chances in life. That's the exact same message an old school supremacist would have. This article and movement is tacitly saying they cannot succeed academically without white schools taking their kids in. That's obviously untrue, and yet, here we are.

[Vol]

Ho-ly shit is the internet being shilled hard. Every public site I read, totally flooded with TREASON because of today's press conference. Blatant too. Some places I'm seeing the same script used multiple times. The organization to set that up is a bit more than a simple botnet, but it's still impressive.

[TheodoricFriede]

Ho-ly shit is the internet being shilled hard. Every public site I read, totally flooded with TREASON because of today's press conference. Blatant too. Some places I'm seeing the same script used multiple times. The organization to set that up is a bit more than a simple botnet, but it's still impressive.

While normally I agree, its telling when even Fox News is upset.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Ho-ly shit is the internet being shilled hard. Every public site I read, totally flooded with TREASON because of today's press conference. Blatant too. Some places I'm seeing the same script used multiple times. The organization to set that up is a bit more than a simple botnet, but it's still impressive.

While normally I agree, its telling when even Fox News is upset.

Not really. Fox has had Neo Con sympathies for years.

They're really no different from CNN.

[Raga]

Relevant: https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/03/ ... difficult/

Though an addition to the above: Donald Trump is basically an American version of a Russian kleptocrat and he undoubtedly has ties of at least sympathy and probably business with them.

[Raga]

stuff on integration and schools

What's dumb is that it's only the last few years (since the 80s or so) where a nonsensical language has risen up around this. The pitfalls of segregation (de facto or de jure) could be explained using language from the 1960s or 1970s. Take a bunch of poor people who are concentrated in a given area for whatever reasons (discrimination, housing costs, whatever), base school funding on property taxes/values, and you are pretty much guaranteed to have shitty, poor schools in shitty, poor areas. This obviously limits the ability of people to rise up out of the shitty, poor areas because they get lackluster education. So the proper thing to do is to make sure the shitty, poor schools get proper funding, which means completely overhauling the way taxes work or "acquiring" high value properties and their denizens as part of the pool for a given school.

But today, you can't talk about the fallout of poverty in this way because it isn't predicated enough on overt, current discrimination and because it implies that living in generation after generation after generation of poverty might lead to cultural decline. In other words, anything that suggests that the reason brown people aren't doing so well is chiefly anything *besides* ongoing, modern day discrimination is verboten. *Any* divergence of outcome can only be explained by the current system being systemically racist. It cannot be a product of culture. It cannot be a product of inherited consequences of historical racism. It cannot be a product of economics. Or some combination of all of that because any of those suggest that groups of people who are doing poorly *might* have some internal issue that is contributing to the problem. Ongoing, systemic racism *must* explain everything because it's the only thing that doesn't require non-white to change anything they are doing.

This guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibram_X._Kendi is a big pusher of this idea.

[Vol]

@Theo: Yeah, as he said, Fox News are neocons and moderates, by and large. Their big pundits, Hannity and Tucker, are Trumpians, but they're not the main fare.

@Raga: And there's your problem. In order to elevate the shit schools, you have to make it worse for everyone else. People are easily convinced that they should accept worsening their children's chances in life in order to help the children of complete strangers who probably do not like them. Which is why you see limousine liberals make all the right noises in public, but when it comes time to talk about redistricting and sharing the tax haul, harumph harumph.

Yes, that's exactly right. All problems stem from oppression of a higher class. Since, as you noted, the economic aspect is largely ignored, the focus is cultural (from the oppressor). Which is why the new hotness is garbage opinion pieces that make some insane claim about white people and men. Everyone else has no problems that are not the fault of them. They are all helpless, pure children bravely finding voices to confront the awful people who have all the power and wealth and made their lives bad. Cultural Marxism.

[Raga]

A lot of this is also a product of our obsession with elite colleges and with public schools that serve as pipelines to those elite colleges. The truth is that some infusion of some-odd percent (say 25%) of poor brown kids or whatever into a school will not turn it into a failure factory. However, it might stop a given school from being a pipeline to elite colleges, which is what upper middle class parents throw a fit about.

Overall my sympathies do tend to rest more with the people wanting to break up segregated schools. Not because I get my knickers in a twist over Asian dominated elite Harvard pipeline schools but because most *actual* overt failure factories are overwhelmingly full of minority students, which is grotesquely unfair. I go back to something I said at some point earlier in the thread. Most students can get a decent education at most of the schools in the country and there's really no excuse for a school that consistently fails to make basic benchmarks like teaching appropriate literacy levels or rudimentary math. If some redistribution is needed to fix that lowest common denominator, so be it.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNpwjywRtzU

[Vol]

It will necessarily reduce the quality of the experience for everyone already there, much like my presence at a sociologist cocktail party would. Not to failure, but it'll make life worse for the kids already there, in minor or major ways. Make life better for the kids being sent up, so it's a matter of who you care about more. And then there's always the ability of parents with means to take their kids and flee, leaving the kids who don't parents with money to burn with the poor kids.

I'm of two minds. Either public schooling aught to be a last resort, and in no way mandatory, therefore it's fine to fuck with districts and funding so everyone is more or less equal. Or, public schooling is a necessary local institution, paid for and run by the people who live around them, and tough shit if you live in the wrong place, you were always doomed unless other people lifted you above their heads.

Saying that they must be mandatory, tax funded, and forcibly "diversified," is too authoritarian. What do you do if eventually most white kids are in private school? Demand integration with some sort of public voucher program? I look at the shitshow of higher education, and that's effectively what's happened, and the value of a degree has never been lower, while the cost has never been higher, and they function as daycare for adults. Just like K-12 acted as daycare (and segregation of the youth) before it.

[Raga]

Canada's system works pretty well. It's not based on local property values. Taxes go to the province level and are reapportioned from there, if I remember correctly. And even white people with kids in private schools still have to pay property taxes (or would have to pay school taxes if we didn't derive this from property tax). Private school tuition isn't tax deductible for the most part, so those white people are paying for public school whether they chose to use it or not.

Currently, it's less a matter of demanding more money or more diverse schools from people, but insisting the money that is collected is distributed in w way that makes more sense.

[DarkStorm]

When I was in NY my parents still had to pay the school tax for my high school/middle school I didn't go to anymore.

[Mobius_118]

When I was in NY my parents still had to pay the school tax for my high school/middle school I didn't go to anymore.

So do mine.

We also pay taxes for roads we personally don't use, and for state and federal services we don't use.

What's your point again?

[DarkStorm]

When I was in NY my parents still had to pay the school tax for my high school/middle school I didn't go to anymore.

So do mine.

We also pay taxes for roads we personally don't use, and for state and federal services we don't use.

What's your point again?

It wasnt for you? So for you there is no point.

[Mobius_118]

What I was getting at is that bitching about proper allocation of tax revenue is nothing to bitch about.

Bailing out farmers because trump fucked up with his tariffs was a foreseeable, avoidable event. THAT is theft by taxation.

So is his russian style military parade. And his golf trips that have surpassed Obama's by far in just two years. And his cuts to the rich. And his felony level payoffs to his mistresses using campaign funds.

All worth it to piss off the majority of the country, amirite? Tapes mean you're fucked.

[DarkStorm]

K

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

K

People outside Mobius and his cult legit don't care.

They shot their bolt on two years of outrage. Mobius is going to end up in a padded cell in 2020.

[Mobius_118]

Yeah...No. Midterms will be a slaughter against the GOP.

Also, have you seen the full Helsinki press conference? Putin admitted to helping trump. It's over, bud.

You want to die on the trump hill, that's your prerogative. History will remember people like you as the traitors.

[TheodoricFriede]

I dont know how 2020 will turn out, as a lot can happen in 2 years.

But if the democratic party cant find a message by then, the results of the election would be the same then as they would be if the election took place today.

Donald Trump would win regardless of all controversy.

Same thing if their message is all about identity politics.

[Raga]

When I was in NY my parents still had to pay the school tax for my high school/middle school I didn't go to anymore.

Standard and fair. I pay school taxes and I have no kids.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Yeah...No. Midterms will be a slaughter against the GOP.

Also, have you seen the full Helsinki press conference? Putin admitted to helping trump. It's over, bud.

You want to die on the trump hill, that's your prerogative. History will remember people like you as the traitors.

What are you going to do when that doesn't happen?

What are you going to do when it becomes Obvious that the Democrats can't get their shit together?

[Vol]

Articles of impeachment have been submitted by the House GOP against Rosenstein. They only need a majority to pass it, then 2/3's of the Senate to remove him from office.

EU and Trump have agreed to some sort of preliminary deal to remove the tariffs and avert a trade war, and we'll be increasing export of soy beans and natural gas to them apparently.

I watched part of the Pompeo hearing earlier and I thought only of how wonderful it'd be if all those people in the room didn't exist.

[Mobius_118]

What are you going to do when that doesn't happen?

What are you going to do when it becomes Obvious that the Democrats can't get their shit together?

Considering there's ample evidence that is what exactly is going to happen, your question is pointless.

Better question is when the trump regime is impeached, arrested, and locked away in an 8X8 cell, will you continue to be a braindead drooler about it?

My money says yes. People like you never learn.

Articles of impeachment have been submitted by the House GOP against Rosenstein. They only need a majority to pass it, then 2/3's of the Senate to remove him from office.

EU and Trump have agreed to some sort of preliminary deal to remove the tariffs and avert a trade war, and we'll be increasing export of soy beans and natural gas to them apparently.

I watched part of the Pompeo hearing earlier and I thought only of how wonderful it'd be if all those people in the room didn't exist.

Did Rosenstein actually commit a crime? No. He did not.

If the GOP wants to waste taxpayer money investigating Benghazi 4 times after causing it in the first place, they can go all the way to the end of this "witch hunt".

What are they so afraid of if they're innocent?

[TTTX]

Yeah...No. Midterms will be a slaughter against the GOP.

Also, have you seen the full Helsinki press conference? Putin admitted to helping trump. It's over, bud.

You want to die on the trump hill, that's your prerogative. History will remember people like you as the traitors.

So let me get this straight you trust Putin, the guy, who according to the left, apparently wants to split the USA in 2 by having Trump elected.

[TheodoricFriede]

So let me get this straight you trust Putin, the guy, who according to the left, apparently wants to split the USA in 2 by having Trump elected.

Also Putin didn't "admit" to anything other then wanting Trump to win. Which is obvious considering that even American citizens who vehemently supported Trump did so because he would be a disruptive force in Washington, rather then in spite of it. For many, that was the point.

The idea that he "admitted to helping Trump win" is laughable.

This is no to say that I dont believe Russia tried, or even that Putin was involved. Rather, I am stating that trying to use Putin "admitting" anything as proof is a sign of pitiable desperation.

[Mazder]

What are they so afraid of if they're innocent?

To be fair that's the exact sort of rhetoric that gets the Orwellian shit that's going on in the UK through.
Freedom of speech is removed due to hate speech laws, CCTV/camera's everywhere for "safety purposes", gun control/removal, police being able to take your private data from your phone on a random stop if they feel it'd contribute to an arrest.
If you're innocent/got nothing to hide then you surely have no complaints for being monitored, you surely have no complaints for some freedoms infringed/removed for the "Greater Good".

Also Putin didn't "admit" to anything other then wanting Trump to win. Which is obvious considering that even American citizens who vehemently supported Trump did so because he would be a disruptive force in Washington, rather then in spite of it. For many, that was the point.

The idea that he "admitted to helping Trump win" is laughable.

This is no to say that I dont believe Russia tried, or even that Putin was involved. Rather, I am stating that trying to use Putin "admitting" anything as proof is a sign of pitiable desperation.

I've also met a bunch of "former" Democrats who might have been more "middle of the road left" who say they'd honestly vote for Trump in 2020 just to spite the current Democratic scene because of how fractured and "crazy" the left seem to be these days.
It seems to be a "all far left or no left at all" stance with a lot of the left leaning politicians and their followers.

Also let's not forget that Russia meddled with BOTH parties during the election because their goal was to sow dissent, which as it turns out was super fucking easy for them this time around. But apparently the left wants to forget it's Russian meddling.

[TheodoricFriede]

I've also met a bunch of "former" Democrats who might have been more "middle of the road left" who say they'd honestly vote for Trump in 2020 just to spite the current Democratic scene because of how fractured and "crazy" the left seem to be these days.
It seems to be a "all far left or no left at all" stance with a lot of the left leaning politicians and their followers.

Well I can tell you this now as someone who is very much ready for a new president.

Democrats make it about identity politics and open borders again and I'll vote Trump.

[Mazder]

Well I can tell you this now as someone who is very much ready for a new president.

Democrats make it about identity politics and open borders again and I'll vote Trump.

Open borders doesn't work.
I can't believe there are so many US citizens gunning for it. It makes absolutely no sense.
Did they not look at the refugee Migrant crisis we had?
Open borders just invites more illegal immigrants into your country, more people to sponge off the resources with absolutely no requirements to provide into it.

I mean seriously they're the same types of people who are okay with illegal immigrants having the same rights as the citizen.
So if anyone has the same rights then what's the fucking point of gaining citizenship then?
Isn't a democracy supposed to act on behalf of it's citizens?!

Also apparently Black/African American unemployment is down to it's lowest since the 70's apparently, and apparently the economy is going up. So a couple of good things are happening that can not be excused/written off.

And the identity politics. I am sick of it.
Did you guys know that it's becomming such a worldwide problem that left leaning groups are turning on themselves?
In Stockton in the UK there is a "Gays against Sharia UK" and "Standing for Britain" joint rally where they're going to be protesting grooming gangs and rapes of gay/LGBT girls and women in Stockton, done by muslim gangs. Guess who's about to counter protest this?
Fucking Antifa.
That's right.
Why?
Because "Islamaphobia".
Fuck me sideways this shit is just insane.

[Mobius_118]

So let me get this straight you trust Putin, the guy, who according to the left, apparently wants to split the USA in 2 by having Trump elected.

I don't trust Putin at all. But he did admit, on international TV, that he helped Trump win. The russian agents that have been arrested and indicted goes along with all the other evidence to confirm collusion. This isn't hard, people. There is hard, direct evidence that the entire administration has been colluding with a foreign power to win and secure power, to destroy this nation from within.

I don't know where you got the idea I trusted the murderous asshole.

[Raga]

There is an abiding and continuing strain of though on the left that people can't actually think for themselves. That anybody who votes counter to how the intelligentsia wants them to vote must be suffering from brainwashing, and that certain powerful entities "buy" or "steal" or otherwise conjure false elections by duplicitous messaging.

I'm not happy about the misinformation or unending campaign advertising either, but I don't go so far as to say that any election with results I don't like must be illegitimate because such misinformation exists.

Per Roger Scruton: "Intellectuals are naturally attracted by the idea of a planned society, in the belief that they will be in charge of it."

[Mobius_118]

It would be one thing if there was no evidence of corruption, but there is more than enough to put this administration in the ground.

25th Amendment exists for a reason, to put unstable people like trump out of office so he can't fuck up the nation.

I'm starting to miss the days when Bush was in office. He was a shitty president, but at least he tried to get along with our allies and not give our enemies aid and comfort.

[Raga]

I have 0 doubt that Trump has borderline if not actually illegal business ties with Russia, general sympathy with strongmen, and that his administration at least tried to collude or was open to collusion of the "give us trash on Hillary and we'll see what we can do about the Magnitsky Act" variety. Trying to remove Rosenstein is a cheap stunt.

However, what we *know* happened so far, which is that Russian hackers revealed a bunch of DNC dirty laundry, that they bought a bunch of duplicitous adds on social media, and that they created a swarm of fake accounts specifically to stir up racial and partisan contention in no way undermines the legitimacy of the election. People still freely voted. Information wasn't suppressed. They weren't paid off or intimidated. There was no ballot box stuffing or election fraud or whatever.

@ open borders stuff

I am fast becoming close to one of those obnoxious one-issue voters on this. Barring some Japanese bombing Pearl Harbor level catastrophe that demands perspective, I am pretty much resolved at the very least that I won't vote for anybody who wants to liberalize immigration policy. So I won't be voting for Beto here as one example. I freaking *hate* Ted Cruz so we'll see if I can swallow enough bile to vote for that slimey git. I will most likely vote for neither.

[TTTX]

I don't trust Putin at all. But he did admit, on international TV, that he helped Trump win. The russian agents that have been arrested and indicted goes along with all the other evidence to confirm collusion. This isn't hard, people. There is hard, direct evidence that the entire administration has been colluding with a foreign power to win and secure power, to destroy this nation from within.

I don't know where you got the idea I trusted the murderous asshole.

because Putin could be lying, just to you know fuck with your country even more, make you a little more weak.

[Mobius_118]

Cutting out the weakness of the GOP is not going to damage this country in any way.

The shitbag trump has brought us from world leader status to a fucking joke. Putting him in prison along with the rest of this kleptocracy will be a start in repairing what we used to be and what we should be.

Unless his supporters are stupid enough, and they are, to get even more violent and bring the U.S. down from within more than they already have.

[TTTX]

Cutting out the weakness of the GOP is not going to damage this country in any way.

The shitbag trump has brought us from world leader status to a fucking joke. Putting him in prison along with the rest of this kleptocracy will be a start in repairing what we used to be and what we should be.

Unless his supporters are stupid enough, and they are, to get even more violent and bring the U.S. down from within more than they already have.

Says the person who supported a candidate who lost her own election by mostly her fault, she had the popular vote but that doesn't mean anything especially consider she isn't the first to lose with the popular vote.

Europe are more of a joke on the political front then Trump is, hell I should know my own politicians don't even care to try and run our country.

The left have plenty violent supporters to, so that means very little.

[Mobius_118]

Clinton won by 3 million votes, and our Electoral College failed us.

[TTTX]

Clinton won by 3 million votes, and our Electoral College failed us.

and most people would move on and try to do better next time.

[TheodoricFriede]

Clinton won by 3 million votes, and our Electoral College failed us.

Were back to that one huh?

If the Electoral College is so much to blame, then it sounds to me like Russia is off the hook. If the deviants in the Republican party can win every election just by exploiting our own systems, then I doubt anyone in the Trump camp needed Russian help at all.

[Mobius_118]

Clinton won by 3 million votes, and our Electoral College failed us.

Were back to that one huh?

If the Electoral College is so much to blame, then it sounds to me like Russia is off the hook. If the deviants in the Republican party can win every election just by exploiting our own systems, then I doubt anyone in the Trump camp needed Russian help at all.

That would totally work if it weren't for, you know, the mountain of evidence, the indictments, the guilty pleas, the Russian agents caught in our country committing the exact operation to sway votes...

You ever think it could be both?

Also, the Rosenstein impeachment is already being pulled back.

Who would've thought that a man conducting an investigation wouldn't want to give up his sources so as to protect the integrity of the investigation isn't guilty of anything illegal?

[Mazder]

Clinton won by 3 million votes, and our Electoral College failed us.

So what is your alternative to just the popular vote?
Because the popular vote basically means 10 cities can outvote the entire rest of the country. That shit is way more detestable, IMO.

[TheodoricFriede]

You ever think it could be both?

I think you are increasingly desperate to blame everyone and everything except those who were actually responsible.

Its something children do.

[Mobius_118]

I think you're once again attacking the idea that I could be right because you've frequently, adamantly, vehemently expressed your hatred towards me as a person rather than consider my idea to be right.

That's something children do.

Identifying, isolating, and dealing with multiple issues is what adults do. It's what I do. I've already identified multiple problems with the system and I keep a correspondence with my politicians to ensure they know about it. That's about all I can do as a citizen.

What do you do again?

[TheodoricFriede]

What do you do again?

Live in the real world.

[Mobius_118]

Do you? Because I don't see it.

[TheodoricFriede]

Well its hard to see much of anything when your head is shoved up your own ass.

[Mobius_118]

Well its hard to see much of anything when your head is shoved up your own ass.

You consider yourself a logical man, but you reject the evidence right in front of you that the trump regime is in foreign pockets and destroying this country.

You live in a fantasy world. Meanwhile I have to deal with his continuing assaults on my insurance, benefits as a Veteran, my job as a soldier, and my community.

If anyone has their head secured up their ass, it's you.