Riptide wrote:Raga wrote:
The thing is there is no series of perspectives inside Legion. He follows that statement about perspectives by saying "One platform sees one thing, another sees something else and they make different judgements." Legion is 1 gestalt sapient entity that will remain different until he can network with other gestalt sapient geth entities. He also says at another point "Each individual is equivalent [note *equivalent* and not *comparable* or *analogous*]. Together we form a single gestalt intellect. What you refer to as Legion."
I am willing to concede that he might just be engaging in confusing machine speak and what he really means by all his consensus talk on his loyalty mission is basically "this platform, that is this sapient entity known as Legion, can't decide what to do because I don't have enough information" which is really no different than organic saying "I can't make up my mind." In that case, he really is talking about the overall pattern formed by his runtimes networking just as the network of my nuerons produces memories or emotions or thoughts. However, the way things are phrased makes it seem as if he is going out of his way to count the individual "opinion" of each runtime, which is no different than counting VIs and thus nonsense.
Again for the record, I don't actually argue that the geth lack sapience just as I don't argue that the Normany can't travel at FTL. I just shrug my shoulders and accept both for space magic reasons.
@Vol
That explanation would make sense. As for your second explanation he does mention that his "high-order" runtimes can't build consensus at one point, but again that creates all kinds of other lore contradictions.
You might of had a point there, but the thing to remember is that Legion gives the numbers for his 'coinflips' regarding the heretics, and notes that, I believe it's like two more or something favor destruction over rewrite. The thing is that Legion doesn't take the majority and automatically go with it, it has the self awareness to understand that the margin of error there is worth reconciling.
Moreover, I think it's erroneous to think of each individual program within a single unit as being the same by virtue of them having the same perspective. The geth are math, and as Legion points out, different geth can deliver different outcomes and they might all be valid. So in theory, a program within Legion that is devoted to negotiating with organics might return that destruction is preferable to ensure the heretics can't come back and continue to damage relations with organics, a program devoted to military tactics might return that rewrite is preferable as it gives the orthodox geth a military advantage, and a program devoted to finding ways to combat the reapers might return destruction again because it means less chance of heretic viewpoints infecting the true geth consensus, further dividing their numbers.
It's never stated to work that way, I don't think, but it would make sense that if Legion is a network unto itself, that each program within might perform a specific function, and when they do so as a unit they are able to make the critical problem solving necessary for sentience.
Indeed.
For consideration, Legion compares each geth program to an eye; every “eye” is seeing the same thing, recieving the same data, but each can reach different conclusions and interpretations, hence the need for consensus. Implying each geth program is a unique entity that can see the world in its own way, but its only when networked together with other geth programs in sufficient numbers do they have the processing power to become and express that cognitive uniqueness and sentient/sapient awareness. Then they debate and reach a collective decision. It comes down to whether you think the evidence points to Legion being an individual entity unto itself in addition to its runtimes, or there is no distinct Legion personality, just the result of thousands of runtimes making choices; a group effort with no singular identity. “There is no I, there is only we.” In ME2, the evidence points to Legion being the second, but ME3 points to Legion being --or at the very least becoming-- the first. And thats before the Reaper upgrade at the end of Rannoch which muddies the waters over geth intelligence even further. Consistency is thrown out the window for the sake of a Pinocchio complex. Also for consideration, upon meeting Legion for the first time on the derelict Reaper, and before finding out Legion's platform has its/their own special network of over a thousand runtimes, Tali says “It shouldn’t be able to talk. A single geth has no more intelligence than a varren."
