Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Mobius_118]

Eh, it's not like the facts matter to you anyway. I expose trump as a pathological liar, racist, sexist, treasonous, dementia addled loon, and you choose to attack my character rather than investigate for yourself. I shouldn't be surprised, you're just as bad as he is, if not worse. He's going to go down, you won't.

I merely exposed his height discrepancy. You attacked me, rather than actually look. If you were a rational person you'd at least try. But you can't. Or you won't. I get it, you don't want to give the other side any leeway. "The other side is wrong no matter what" mentality is fucking strong with you. I listen to trump's ramblings, I watch those videos you post, I've been giving sargon of akkad a listen. You don't even look to see if they're wrong, they just stroke your dick.

You're just as fragile as your white supremacist supporting wanna-be in office. And I'll be here to watch you skulk away.

[Mazder]

but nitpick away.

HA!
You're the one asking for us to compare one person's flat heeled shoes to the other's obvious heeled ones!

Even if you take it as "Trump mistook his own height" we've not heard anyone corroborate the height numbers, they only say he's healthy enough to be in office, which, big shock and surprise, he is.
He's met the mental requirements all other presidents have been required to make, even taking a cognitive test that no others have taken and passed it easily.

Actually I'm calling out the lies put forth by someone who's supposed to be a professional,

Okay, so many years have you been a doctor of medicine Mobius? Hmmm?
How many case studies have you done on varying people to determine mental fitness?

As Theo has already stated there have been many other Presidents who have had worse problems than Trump has currently, yet by your admission they were fit for office.

Why is it now it's someone you don't like it's miraculously not good enough to pass the requirements all the others have passed?

I expose trump as a pathological liar, racist, sexist, treasonous, dementia addled loon, and you choose to attack my character rather than investigate for yourself.

Oh please, get off your fucking high horse.
You're not some arbiter for justice, you're just butthurt because your candidate lost and you're going to have to face a few years of someone you don't like being in charge.
Fuck sake if you were English and voted to remain in the EU you'd have put yourself into a coma for how high your blood pressure would have been.

He's going to go down, you won't.

Best of luck with that. Hey how about you get someone worse in charge than Trump that the Republicans actually like? Maybe, Oh I dunno, the guy next in line if Trump goes?
The only way you'd be happy if Trump goes is if ALL the Republicans also go, and that's not going to happen, even if he gets impeached.

I merely exposed his height discrepancy.

Yeah and you know how much it matters?
It doesn't, end of. It doesn't matter if he's 3 foot and he's saying he's 12 foot tall, we can all see otherwise. If he wants to win a miniscule battle then let him, because it's better than every single one who is currently ranting and raving about his health being distracted by it than actually paying attention to what really matters and what he actually wants to get away with.
The more people bitch and moan about the tiniest things the more time he has while they're distracted to implement the big shit.

And if in the very least, if you all shut up about it AND keep your eyes on the ball you might just trick him into a false sense of security and catch him out.

You attacked me, rather than actually look. If you were a rational person you'd at least try. But you can't. Or you won't. I get it, you don't want to give the other side any leeway. "The other side is wrong no matter what" mentality is fucking strong with you. I listen to trump's ramblings, I watch those videos you post, I've been giving sargon of akkad a listen. You don't even look to see if they're wrong, they just stroke your dick.

Pot, kettle.
If he doesn't act like he doesn't want to give the other leeway then neither do you.

How about next time there is a video give a point by point breakdown of why you disagree. At least then we'd have more information other than "I don't like that person because I think they're the enemy".

[Mobius_118]

I have. Then I get personal attacks.

I have yet to see any actual counter arguments, just personal insults.

[Mazder]

I have. Then I get personal attacks.

I have yet to see any actual counter arguments, just personal insults.

No, you've not actually. You've dismissed, rebounded and deflected and then resorted to the same types of attacks you accuse GAC of doing.
If you actually acted like you thought you did you wouldn't have myself, Darkstorm, Theo and even GAC arguing with you literally every time you have anything to say.
You've never given a millimetre of compromise, you've not once even attempted to give reasons for examples to hand and give old examples of why you disagree with the opinion pieces.
Not once have I seen you attempt to see things from the opposite of your perspective and even if you do it's to bring about more arguments instead of actual discussions.

GAC wouldn't like me saying this as it's his form of fun to poke you, but you really, really have to learn when he's pushing your buttons because he knows how you react, and spoiler alert it's how you react with every post, be it talking to him or not.
You claim to be calm, yet you're the first to resort to insults. You claim to be fair, yet all your posts as someone even brings up an ounce of not supporting the "Hate Donald Trump" train your words get hysterical.
I mean I don't wanna be the one to say it but you call Trump deluded but you keep acting like you're acting like a saint and you're in the right. You're not. You're just another mouth.

Oh, and nice two sentence response to my breakdown of your post. I'll look forward to the next one or two.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Tbh I've been pretty honest about poking Mobius with a stick for keks. I am being completely honest when I say I think he's in a cult though.

Which is a genuinely sad state of affairs if you think about it. And if he wasn't such an unlikable virtue signalling cunt it'd be a real tragedy. This is why I oppose the far left. Because it produces people like Mobius consistently.

From the Remoaners of Britain to the Never Trumpers and Pussy Hat wearers of America.

[DarkStorm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvqTf0pUQps

[Mobius_118]

GAC, Maz, Dark, just stop. You're embarrassing yourselves.

None of you have worked in government or are even involved. I have to deal with it on the daily.

Implying I'm in a cult or unstable is laughable. The only cult I've ever been in was the US Army which should have destroyed my liberal leanings, but it didn't. Thank fuck for that, I'd end up like GAC, doing it all for the lolz.

No, you've not actually. You've dismissed, rebounded and deflected and then resorted to the same types of attacks you accuse GAC of doing.
If you actually acted like you thought you did you wouldn't have myself, Darkstorm, Theo and even GAC arguing with you literally every time you have anything to say.
You've never given a millimetre of compromise, you've not once even attempted to give reasons for examples to hand and give old examples of why you disagree with the opinion pieces.
Not once have I seen you attempt to see things from the opposite of your perspective and even if you do it's to bring about more arguments instead of actual discussions.

GAC wouldn't like me saying this as it's his form of fun to poke you, but you really, really have to learn when he's pushing your buttons because he knows how you react, and spoiler alert it's how you react with every post, be it talking to him or not.
You claim to be calm, yet you're the first to resort to insults. You claim to be fair, yet all your posts as someone even brings up an ounce of not supporting the "Hate Donald Trump" train your words get hysterical.
I mean I don't wanna be the one to say it but you call Trump deluded but you keep acting like you're acting like a saint and you're in the right. You're not. You're just another mouth.

Oh, and nice two sentence response to my breakdown of your post. I'll look forward to the next one or two.

Trump was, and is, completely unhinged. He's a direct threat to the nation and the world. This "No compromise" attitude I have is completely justified, and I have nothing nice to say to his supporters. They are complicit in his agenda to fuck over 99% of the population, including the military that he's claimed to love, but has actively screwed. He's a failed businessman, a racist, a sexist, a classist, and as corrupt as they come. To give him, his cabinet, and his supporters an inch is to invite more people like GAC into the mix, with nothing done but take away healthcare, education, infrastructure, and every other benefit to living in this country away.

I might not even get paid while this government shutdown happens. Why? Dumbfuck won't protect servicemembers. I will be working for free. If my VA benefits disappear, if the GI Bill is not upheld, there will be hundreds of thousands of veterans who will go without care, tuition, housing, everything that we fucking earned. As soon as there was a threat of a shut down back in 2013, Obama signed in a bill to keep us paid. That fuckwagon trump won't do it.

So when I sound "hysterical", it's actually anger. Anger that people like GAC will look at a soldiers plight and laugh, mocking him or her for doing something he's too chickenshit to do. And when someone like trump gets away with cheating on his wife with a pornstar, being a racist fuckface, a sexist shithead, a useless slumlord, a failed businessman, being a traitor, and most recently, corrupting a military medical officer for a favorable, falsified medical report, I get a little heated. He is the biggest piece of shit I've had the displeasure of having as a boss.

Try having your livelihood threatened by someone who's supposedly the biggest supporter of the military ever. Not by immigrants, not by Democrats, but by the party that, historically, has at least supported the military members. See how it feels when your future is actually threatened. Then talk down to me about how I act.

[Mazder]

GAC, Maz, Dark, just stop. You're embarrassing yourselves.

None of you have worked in government or are even involved. I have to deal with it on the daily.

Oh for fuck sake.
There you go again with that high and mighty attitude.
Dude I'm not purporting to be "in the know" all I do is react to shit on a day by day, case by case basis. I'm not the one with a hateboner.

Also working in the Military and "the Government" are two very different jobs and unless you've changed career paths suddenly in the past 2 months since the last time you mentioned your daily work of being a soldier you're still a part of an asset used by the government at best. You have no influence in changing policies, you have no power to alter local laws, or state laws or even federal laws, so I would not class that as "for the government".

Trump was, and is, completely unhinged. He's a direct threat to the nation and the world. This "No compromise" attitude I have is completely justified, and I have nothing nice to say to his supporters. They are complicit in his agenda to fuck over 99% of the population, including the military that he's claimed to love, but has actively screwed. He's a failed businessman, a racist, a sexist, a classist, and as corrupt as they come. To give him, his cabinet, and his supporters an inch is to invite more people like GAC into the mix, with nothing done but take away healthcare, education, infrastructure, and every other benefit to living in this country away.

I might not even get paid while this government shutdown happens. Why? Dumbfuck won't protect servicemembers. I will be working for free. If my VA benefits disappear, if the GI Bill is not upheld, there will be hundreds of thousands of veterans who will go without care, tuition, housing, everything that we fucking earned. As soon as there was a threat of a shut down back in 2013, Obama signed in a bill to keep us paid. That fuckwagon trump won't do it.

So when I sound "hysterical", it's actually anger. Anger that people like GAC will look at a soldiers plight and laugh, mocking him or her for doing something he's too chickenshit to do. And when someone like trump gets away with cheating on his wife with a pornstar, being a racist fuckface, a sexist shithead, a useless slumlord, a failed businessman, being a traitor, and most recently, corrupting a military medical officer for a favorable, falsified medical report, I get a little heated. He is the biggest piece of shit I've had the displeasure of having as a boss.

Try having your livelihood threatened by someone who's supposedly the biggest supporter of the military ever. Not by immigrants, not by Democrats, but by the party that, historically, has at least supported the military members. See how it feels when your future is actually threatened. Then talk down to me about how I act.

So by your thinking there should be no compromise, a chance to change minds, alter views or at least sway things to a direction you want by opening an dialogue, even if it means you have to trick him to do it by pretending to be on board is impossible because at the end of the day you feel he's a bad man. Oh dear, you might have to get your hands dirty when dealing with an opposition and you might have to give a little ground in order to have a chance of getting your foot in the door.
And if it's the case that he's so good at finding the weaknesses of your party to exploit them then fix your own damned party first. Present a united and strong front instead of this constant whinging and nitpicking in all the wrong areas. Stop falling for the outrage distractions and misdirections. Stop getting mad when he wants you to be mad.

If you'd be working for free then find another job. Or get all your fellow servicemen to protest. find out how much he like the Military when he finds out he doesn't have one. Instead of screaming about how bad he is get a bunch of good people and give him the silent treatment and watch him implode from a lack of drama.
Once again, you don't even know if the medical report was falsified. Outside of a few colourful words of description he fits the necessary health for a President as set by your own requirements. If that were not the case he would not have been able to run. Nor would have Hillary due to her age, nor Sanders, nor anyone below 50, which was pretty much most of the candidates, due to normal health limitations of a 50 year old.
Not everyone spends their lives training their bodies. People have vices. Obama's lungs were probably half as good as mine, and I've had childhood Athsma and Obesity weighing them down.
As far as I know cheating on your wife or being married isn't a requirement for being president, if it is it's a stupid rule that needs to be removed. So his cheating doesn't matter, it's inconsequential.
Sexist, half to more of the Presidents you've had were sexist by our modern terms. Are we going to go back on all of them and say if they were fit or unfit on that grounds? Yeah, he's an ass, doesn't mean we need more people responding in kind.

Your future is in your own hands. If you feel strongly that he's a threat to your job then do something about it. You're in the best country for starting political protests, in the best position to reach your peers and in the best time to get a message out. Start doing instead of saying. Stop marching to the fife if you feel you're marching off a cliff. Because right now, being outraged but doing nothing, it's exactly what he wants.
If you feel you can't do anything you've not been paying attention to all those that broke you down and built you back up in the Military. You want to change it then do so.

As for GAC on here. Stop feeding him. Stop coming in all hysterical, don't give him any ammo. You see something you disagree with don't post. He'll keep posting for a time, sure, but then he'll eventually get bored when no-one is responding.
At the very least cut the insults and stick to the few facts. If someone doesn't agree then agree to disagree and move on. History will tell you if you're right or wrong.

[TTTX]

Trump was, and is, completely unhinged. He's a direct threat to the nation and the world. This "No compromise" attitude I have is completely justified, and I have nothing nice to say to his supporters. They are complicit in his agenda to fuck over 99% of the population, including the military that he's claimed to love, but has actively screwed. He's a failed businessman, a racist, a sexist, a classist, and as corrupt as they come. To give him, his cabinet, and his supporters an inch is to invite more people like GAC into the mix, with nothing done but take away healthcare, education, infrastructure, and every other benefit to living in this country away.

I might not even get paid while this government shutdown happens. Why? Dumbfuck won't protect servicemembers. I will be working for free. If my VA benefits disappear, if the GI Bill is not upheld, there will be hundreds of thousands of veterans who will go without care, tuition, housing, everything that we fucking earned. As soon as there was a threat of a shut down back in 2013, Obama signed in a bill to keep us paid. That fuckwagon trump won't do it.

So when I sound "hysterical", it's actually anger. Anger that people like GAC will look at a soldiers plight and laugh, mocking him or her for doing something he's too chickenshit to do. And when someone like trump gets away with cheating on his wife with a pornstar, being a racist fuckface, a sexist shithead, a useless slumlord, a failed businessman, being a traitor, and most recently, corrupting a military medical officer for a favorable, falsified medical report, I get a little heated. He is the biggest piece of shit I've had the displeasure of having as a boss.

Try having your livelihood threatened by someone who's supposedly the biggest supporter of the military ever. Not by immigrants, not by Democrats, but by the party that, historically, has at least supported the military members. See how it feels when your future is actually threatened. Then talk down to me about how I act.

Which isn't surprising since Trump really hates Obama (and Obama hates Trump too so they aren't going to be friends ever), if Obama signed it Trump wants it gone and probably replaced by something he signs later, probably (I can't predict the future so yeah I guess we have to wait and see).

But again this isn't a new thing when it comes to presidents or leaders in genereal if they hated something from the people that came before, they generally at least try to remove it and then do something else that falls in line with their view of thinking.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

See that was all very sound advice Mazder.

But he won't follow it. He can't. Everything about his world view depends on him acting as he does. He has to listen and believe to every narrative. He has to hate the enemy. They can't be people. They can't have differing values. No.

Because for the far left Politics is their morality. There can be no separation. Someone who disagrees with their politics has to be immoral BY definition. He's past saving. Nothing can do will help him. The only thing left. The last recourse is to point and laugh at the joke he's become.

[Mobius_118]

But GAC is so much fun to rile up. Especially when he's wrong, so every day is a great day when he posts something stupid.

[Raga]

Not really interested in this particular pissing match other than to point out: I work for the government at a municipal level currently & have done work for the federal government. (I even had my fingerprints stolen when the OPM got hacked a few years back. Fun times). It confers exactly 0 special insight. As it turns out government employees are just humans like in every other profession.

[Mobius_118]

Not on the military side. You at least have autonomy, and a choice when it comes right down to it. I do not. I have to go to drill, I get security and policy updates, and we're all briefed on the status of national and international standings.

For you, yeah, little insight.

For me, a better understanding on the activities of our government.

[Raga]

Unless you have like some kind of high-level clearance for top administrative decision making processes, the nature of those updates is not something a reasonably informed civilian can't find out. Like I have 0 doubt you have more logistical insight into the specific processes of attaining a given goal. I have that too. But *why* that goal was chosen at the top and some other was not? Yea, no.

Relevant tangent: just finished watching a documentary on Daniel Ellsberg and the Pentagon Papers, which demonstrates that everybody from army grunts up to Senators can know a fuckton about government processes that civilians don't and still know shit all about what the government is actually doing.

Also, my autonomy is relative. Without student loan forgiveness for public service I would face crippling debt. So yea, I *could* go elsewhere technically, but I would beggar myself by doing so.

[Mobius_118]

Public service loan forgiveness is currently on the docket for being axed in favor of an income-based repayment plan. Problem with that, is that while, sure, it'll be based on your income, any sort of break in your employment by, say, trump failing to keep jobs in your area because Carrier went and sent their jobs overseas anyway, then you're screwed, because he's stripping the Obama era borrower protections.

My option, it seems, is to sign on for a 6 year contract and use the loan repayment bonus to take care of my student loans. More than likely that option will be gone by the time I can reenlist.

[DarkStorm]

I'm hardly embarrassing myself.

[Mobius_118]

I'm hardly embarrassing myself.

At least you have the mind to bring something to the discussion.

[Raga]

https://ntknetwork.com/california-ag-em ... rosecuted/

The stupidity. I just...

[Mazder]

https://ntknetwork.com/california-ag-employers-who-cooperate-with-federal-immigration-raids-will-be-prosecuted/

The stupidity. I just...

So California is trying to basically punish people for following/complying/being helpful with the law above their laws?
Fuck you California!
Also I would hope those few trying to implement that get their just desserts. No matter your stance on it at current it's got to be a weird and illegal area.

Plus what do they want, to keep illegal immigrants in their state? What kind of backwards ass thinking is that?!

[Raga]

Yea, that's precisely what they want. Something like 25% of DACA kids live in California and something like 1 in 10 workers are illegal. Latinos are the majority demographic group there.

Texas is a little under that, but two things tip the balance here 1) Lots of people move here from other states in the US, whereas California loses more and more of its native born population. 2)Latinos here skew more conservative. They tend to convert to Texas rather than Texas converting to them.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Yea, that's precisely what they want. Something like 25% of DACA kids live in California and something like 1 in 10 workers are illegal. Latinos are the majority demographic group there.

Texas is a little under that, but two things tip the balance here 1) Lots of people move here from other states in the US, whereas California loses more and more of its native born population. 2)Latinos here skew more conservative. They tend to convert to Texas rather than Texas converting to them.

Its a cynical gambit to secure a voting bloc in the future. They know their politics is going to cost them a big part of the white vote and the upwardly mobile latino vote.

So they need other approaches.

[Vol]

I can't tell if this FISA memo thing is real or not, because it's triggering my bullshit detector and my "They know, bury it!" detector. Also I legit have no idea if Twitter is or isn't censoring it, or otherwise screwing with trending topics (SchumerShutdown becomes TrumpShutdown?) because these fucking Silicon Valley money pits are so opaque. But we know they do manipulate in other way, so fuck it. Also the government might shutdown because the Dems want a clean DACA deal, the GOP sure won't give that up without The Wall and other stuff, so that's nice. I think there should be a shutdown. And cut, cut, cut, cut, down to the bone.

Now some Dem group put out a statement saying they refuse to release the FISA memo, which the GOP guys crowing about how super damaging it is might have been banking on, because it'd undermine faith in the FBI because it's Republican talking points, or something. Who knows.

So we know nothing, but we're being told and made to feel a lot.

Edit: Oh, so the repartee to the memo is "Vast Russian conspiracy." Great. This Neo-McCarthyism fucking blows, because we don't even have an ideological basis to unify behind.

[Mobius_118]

I can't tell if this FISA memo thing is real or not, because it's triggering my bullshit detector and my "They know, bury it!" detector. Also I legit have no idea if Twitter is or isn't censoring it, or otherwise screwing with trending topics (SchumerShutdown becomes TrumpShutdown?) because these fucking Silicon Valley money pits are so opaque. But we know they do manipulate in other way, so fuck it. Also the government might shutdown because the Dems want a clean DACA deal, the GOP sure won't give that up without The Wall and other stuff, so that's nice. I think there should be a shutdown. And cut, cut, cut, cut, down to the bone.

Now some Dem group put out a statement saying they refuse to release the FISA memo, which the GOP guys crowing about how super damaging it is might have been banking on, because it'd undermine faith in the FBI because it's Republican talking points, or something. Who knows.

So we know nothing, but we're being told and made to feel a lot.

Edit: Oh, so the repartee to the memo is "Vast Russian conspiracy." Great. This Neo-McCarthyism fucking blows, because we don't even have an ideological basis to unify behind.

With the shutdown, I won't be getting my paychecks.

Oh but it's all the Democrats fault, right? They want DREAMers protected and CHIPS funded. Trump wants to build a fucking wall that won't do anything but waste hundreds of billions of dollars.

Typical of the GOP. Holding the military and children hostage to get their way.

This really is the GOP's fault. They control all three branches of the government, and they still can't do anything?

[Vol]

With the shutdown, I won't be getting my paychecks.

Oh but it's all the Democrats fault, right? They want DREAMers protected and CHIPS funded. Trump wants to build a fucking wall that won't do anything but waste hundreds of billions of dollars.

Typical of the GOP. Holding the military and children hostage to get their way.

This really is the GOP's fault. They control all three branches of the government, and they still can't do anything?

Of all the people who get paid by the government, sure does seem like the people who deserve their pay most are the ones who don't get it, eh?

The CR/budget requires 60 votes, and McCain is off being old and dying in Arizona, so it would've taken every GOP senator plus 10 Dems. A few GOP senators didn't vote yes, but 5 Dems did, so it was well short.

So, in this case, yes, they cannot do anything without a fair amount of Democrat support. They could abolish the 60 vote rule by getting rid of yet another filibusterable topic, but I'd rather not have yet more of our country's major legislation controlled by simple majority.

And so because our government is so dysfunctional, we're playing a game of chicken with the budget. Either the Dems blink first, because refusing to vote for the budget over DACA looks like it'll blow up in their face, or the GOP knuckles under, because they're ball-less cowards when it comes down to a hard fight.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

And either option is equally likely!

Neo-cons versus Neo-libs! No matter who wins everyone else loses! Huzzah!

[Mobius_118]

It's all fun and games until your livelihood is held hostage by the GOP.

I never had to worry about that with a Democratic government.

[DarkStorm]

Funny enough Trump doesnt have to build the wall because of what he has said thats keeping people out. So technically he has built an invisible wall to a degree.

[Vol]

Today was the Woman's March again, usual affair, seems like literally the same sort of march you saw during the height of anti-Bush rallies. Government still shut down, everyone pointing figures at each other.

This one might drag a while, if the media closes ranks.

[Raga]

Not one for schadenfreude normally, but the meltdowns in the comments sections of various progressive news sources I read right about now is reasonably entertaining.

[Vol]

Government's open again, I'm hearing. Not sure if it's been formalized, but a Senate vote him in that was around 81-19 in favor. Heard it funds CHIP for 6 years and gives them until February 8th to do something about DACA. The left-wing of the Democrats seem rather angry, based on my quick browse.

[Alienmorph]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFQMXDLWnsw

Suck it, Ajit, seems like your plan wasn't so loophole-proof after all. Enjoy being outsmarted while you wait on those lawsuits.

[Vol]

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/25/health/c ... index.html

Bahahahahahahahahaha

(Yes, intellectually there's more to sexuality and relationships than "dur consensual swinging is bad" but comedy comes first sometimes.)

[Alienmorph]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSMpZI7Ih3A

That's fucking brilliant... #whopperneutrality

[Vol]

Trump was talking to his guys about firing Mueller, his counsel threatened to quit if he did, so he didn't.

This is now massive, breaking news everywhere, and I'm not entirely sure why. I'm seeing a lot of astroturfing, but that's just how the internet works now.

This incident comes from 4 anonymous sources and was said to happen last June. Which makes this fantastic timing to not be talking about DACA, or the shutdown, or FISA, or Davos, or the recovered FBI text messages. One might see a pattern in our free and open press.

Still, the reaction is noteworthy, so I assume I'm missing something about the significance of this. Though I have noticed the narrative has been shifting from "collusion with Russia" to "obstructed justice by firing Comey."

[DarkStorm]

Trump was talking to his guys about firing Mueller, his counsel threatened to quit if he did, so he didn't.

This is now massive, breaking news everywhere, and I'm not entirely sure why. I'm seeing a lot of astroturfing, but that's just how the internet works now.

This incident comes from 4 anonymous sources and was said to happen last June. Which makes this fantastic timing to not be talking about DACA, or the shutdown, or FISA, or Davos, or the recovered FBI text messages. One might see a pattern in our free and open press.

Still, the reaction is noteworthy, so I assume I'm missing something about the significance of this. Though I have noticed the narrative has been shifting from "collusion with Russia" to "obstructed justice by firing Comey."

CNN has a hard on from russian collusion so I wouldnt say the narrative has changed that much.

[Raga]

I was wondering why *nobody* has anything to say on the immigration memo he put out last night. Was expecting a response, but there's just nothing.

[Mobius_118]

I was wondering why *nobody* has anything to say on the immigration memo he put out last night. Was expecting a response, but there's just nothing.

Well his mouth is akin to a shit nozzle, so it's hard to sift through and find anything worth noting.

[Vol]

Well, the right wing was pissed because it's flanking the Dems from the _left_ in giving amnesty to extra people DACA didn't already cover. The left (some Dreamer group) called it white supremacy. So clearly it's a great deal if everyone's mad.

[Mobius_118]

Some deal-maker trump is.

[Raga]

It seemed like a decent start to me. The deal I want is basically something like this:

Everybody here illegally who is not a hardened criminal (serial burglar, rapist, pedophile, etc.) who has A) a job or B) is currently working towards a degree or job certification gets legal permanent residency but no citizenship. DACA people get a pathway to citizenship.

In return for that, legal immigration levels are reduced by 50% to something like 500,000 people a year. Of that 500,000, 75% are screened by skill and family reunification is limited to minor children and spouses with a caveat that you can't bring them in if you are incapable of supporting them financially. The remaining 25%, so roughly 125,000, would go to bonafide refugees (defined as people fleeing imminent personal peril of genocide, political purges, civil war, etc. and explicitly not including economic migrants) and some form of the visa lottery (with proper vetting of course). What particular percentage goes to visa lottery versus refugees would probably shift by year depending on if some awful genocidal Civil War is on somewhere or not.

[Raga]

This kind of hit home for me: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sty ... 5fc73213ac

I'm finding it broadly true that most of the editorials I find that are worth reading these days are in these stuffed shirt conservative magazines nobody gives a shit about.

[Vol]

This kind of hit home for me: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/sty ... 5fc73213ac

I'm finding it broadly true that most of the editorials I find that are worth reading these days are in these stuffed shirt conservative magazines nobody gives a shit about.

They have been freed to be intellectually honest because nobody gives a shit about them. They have no power and no path to gain much, ideological conservatism has a long time to wait before the cultural baccanal warrants it again as, but enough money to run their outlet. The shackles are off. They can speak their mind, consider other views, be detached from the socially mandated hysterics
and tribalism, because there is no real pressure above or below. Liberation through obsolescence.

It's beautiful in a way.

The hot, hip places? They cannot afford to not toe the line they created. Straitjacket of their own collective making.

[Raga]

So, I am currently reading "Race Matters" by Cornel West and find what he says *much* more sensible than stuff written by critical race theorists and Ta-Nahesi Coates and such. I could write a short novel on some of what he's said that really hit home, but this passage in particular really made me sit up:

"Coupled with the decline of industrial jobs, which were a major source of black employment, is the most crucial transformation in the U.S. economy affecting black Americans in the last four decades; this is the mechanization of Southern agriculture. Forty years ago, 50 percent of all black teenagers had agricultural jobs, and more than 90 percent of those workers lived in the South. As these jobs disappeared, the black unemployment problems in urban centers mushroomed. The recent deindustrialization of northeastern and midwestern cities has exacerbated this problem. And with the added competition for jobs resulting from the entrance of new immigrants and white women into the labor market, semi-skilled and unskilled black workers have found it increasingly difficult, if not impossible, to find employment."

For clarification, this book was written in 1993, so he is talking roughly about the period from 1940-1990, which overlaps with the larger part of the Second Great Migration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mig ... n_American) I always attributed this to a (minor) slackening in Jim Crow systems such as convict lease and sharecropping that at least allowed black people to build up a modicum of wealth sufficient for relocation coupled with a general boom in the US economy following World War II, particularly in manufacturing, that encouraged general movement to locations with factories. I never really conflated it with farm mechanization, even though I knew the Green Revolution happened at *exactly* the same time and the American South has always been where a huge percentage of food in the US is grown.

The reason this sort of blew me away is because it's the first systemic explanation/justification I've seen for a suspicion I've been harboring about an observational phenomenon for a while now: namely, that the plight occurring in white rural and lower class America right now is suspiciously similar to the plight that went through black lower class (mostly urban due to the Great Migration) America from roughly the late 1970s to the mid 1990s.

Consider the similarities: a major uptick in crime, a major uptick in suicides, a major substance abuse problem (crack for one, opioids for the other), a general social disintegration of community institutions like churches, civic groups, and schools, high rates of divorce and unwed motherhood. Both proceeded by a major surge of automation, mechanization, outsourcing, and increased competition in the community's chief source of income in the immediately proceeding 10-30 years. The reason the impact was delayed in white people was twofold. 1)Because farming was mechanized first and not industry. 2)Because they had more accumulated wealth than black people which helped them stave off the worst consequences for roughly one generation.

It should throw a serious damper on anybody who thinks that the services sector is immune to automation or that unlimited free trade and the continued importation of masses of low-skill workers is an overall neutral or positive trend. It also puts paid to overly simplistic "whitelash" explanations for the appearance of Donald Trump.

*Edit* Thought of another reason the impact was delayed in white people. White people have traditionally had more access to credit than black people, which means they ballooned their dwindling income with debt. That has now started to implode over the last 10ish years with the housing crisis, high rates of student loan default, and so on.

[Vol]

Consider the similarities: a major uptick in crime, a major uptick in suicides, a major substance abuse problem (crack for one, opioids for the other), a general social disintegration of community institutions like churches, civic groups, and schools, high rates of divorce and unwed motherhood. Both proceeded by a major surge of automation, mechanization, outsourcing, and increased competition in the community's chief source of income in the immediately proceeding 10-30 years. The reason the impact was delayed in white people was twofold. 1)Because farming was mechanized first and not industry. 2)Because they had more accumulated wealth than black people which helped them stave off the worst consequences for roughly one generation.

What I find intriguing is the differences in the similarities. It should be fairly incontrovertible to say that poverty correlates positively with (prosecuted) crime, though crime occurs at every level.

Crack, entirely recreational, cheap, dirty. Opiods, medicinal at first, expensive, becomes recreational then dependency through abuse as underlying problem isn't fixed. "This will make you feel good" versus "This will make you not feel pain." Peer pressure, or psychological escape, versus permission from authority, physical and psychological escape. Result of conditions and local economics versus results of lifestyle and access to luxury (healthcare, then expensive drug habit).

Whites replaced God with science, still treat "science" as a faith, but one with no hope or moral code. Blacks, I'm less informed on, I assume the destruction of the family unit and burgeoning culture through drug laws and economic devastation, as well the pressure from authorities as the results of that manifest, leads to loss of hope, and therefore faith. "Science is the truth of everything, it knows all. No man in the sky, just oblivion,I don't understand natural laws on a deep level, but I read headlines, praise science." versus what I assume is spiritual nihilism.

And so on. The relative position of the races, though "white" is painfully nondiscrete in America, then exposed to similar circumstances, seems to lead to similar behavior, but from fundamentally different reasons. I would posit that if the Marxists and their cousins didn't use identity as a tool to incite unrest, and the bigots didn't use it to preserve their positions on the ladder, you would see a more rapid blending of poor white and poor black and poor Hispanic cultures. You see some of it already, wiggers and the like. A unified poverty caste, with a disintegrating economic outlook, no hopes, no faiths, and nothing but whatever ramshackle culture and pride they can throw together, would be terrifying to the powers that be, no?

To look into my crystal ball, I think that as more whites (Still the majority!), who should have been the lower and middle class load bearers of society, slip downwards into the shitpit, you'll see more "help" suddenly manifest. Automated jobs are fucking gone, and the cost of automation will only get lower through refinement. In a century, you won't need people to run farms, harvest food, package, deliver, prepare, and cook. The only field I can rightly see as "safe" from imminent (century) automation are creative, and even then, as the mind is more understood, that could be in danger.

*Edit* Thought of another reason the impact was delayed in white people. White people have traditionally had more access to credit than black people, which means they ballooned their dwindling income with debt. That has now started to implode over the last 10ish years with the housing crisis, high rates of student loan default, and so on.

The more I learn about how much of our economy is built on the foundation of theoretical future wealth, the more I'm convinced it's going to come tumbling down. We've kicked the can so far down the road that it's gone into a ravine that needs to be filled, compressed, and paved before we can kick it any further. Instead, we've got people down in that ravine, kicking the shit out of that can even deeper into the dirt.

To break it down by race, black people are going to continue to be screwed as a group. The old who were alive during a better time are dying fast and have no voice or power, and our collective popular culture is obsessed with promoting the toxic and ridiculous in what I'm beginning to see as a giant minstrel show, but without the awareness. It's the same stereotypes, but packaged as cool and hip. Individuals will succeed in their ability to make money for the wealthy and be spectacles, or be used as examples of how "we can help black America with this program that teaches them carpentry!", but no one's going to invest the resources into uplifting their communities as a whole. As what few jobs exist in the enclaves disappear, total dependency on government aid. Same will happen to lower-middle class whites, but slower, and to a lesser extreme. You'll always have white trash, twerking in the streets, fatherless homes, drug abuse, glorification of terrible behavior, and so on, but I think the pressure from higher up to "act white" and a lack of marketed, prepackaged stereotypes to cling to for pride and guidance will keep the ship from disintegrating as it sinks.

I mean, this all comes down to money and mobility, really. If there are major paradigm changes, let's be honest, poor whites are going to benefit way before poor blacks, so we can only hope that if one comes, it's able to elevate us all. And a major spiritual awakening would help.

[Raga]

Two additional thoughts:

1) The difference in how the two substance crises (opioids & crack) started might be somewhat notable but I think operationally they end up in the same place, largely because of the internet. Opioid abuse may have started because of overly indulgent doctors, but the big spike in deaths is largely due to fentanyl, which is being exported from China in large amounts and is easy to buy online, no doctor needed. I think you would likely see a class difference here among white people, just as much between white people generally and black people generally. I expect the middle-class road to addiction is more of the indulgent doctor and the white trash road is more in fentanyl.

2. On nihilism: Ta-Nehesi Coates and Cornel West recently got into a snipping match on twitter such that Coates just up and quit the platform because he was apparently mystified and somewhat insulted as to why West would attack him as they are both black, progressive activists who say 95% the same things on policy. I thought I understood it at once though. Coates is an atheist and though he has too much regard for historical facts and data to be a critical race theorist, he shares with them a deep existential nihilism, though I doubt either of them would classify it that way. It's basically something along the lines of: "White supremacy is forever. White supremacy is at the foundation of all that America does. White supremacy cannot be unrooted or beaten. We have lived under it for 400 years, we will die under it, and our children and grandchildren will die under it. But we refuse to lay down in a ditch and die and therefore we will wave our swords above our heads, scream "Death," and ride on the Pelennor Fields anyway. We will claw meaning out of the darkness with our blood and with our bodies." And while that is very dramatic and romantic and epic and all, it means at heart that their activism is all about themselves and personal meaning making and has pretty much nothing to do with exacting any real changes in policy or their people's circumstances. It also means that there is no particular way you can ally or reason with them, even if you say you want the same things, anymore than you can reason with a kamikaze pilot in the middle of his death dive.

West believes progress is possible through policy change and interracial alliance and he flat out says that there are two major problems facing black people in the US: 1. Racial discrimination, where he agrees with Coates and the critical race theorists and 2) Existential nihilism.

He spends a huge portion of the book propounding the need for prophetic black leadership, black grassroots community-building and activism, and honest analysis of black cultural problems (and general cultural problems because most of the cultural problems faced by black people aren't really unique to them. The problems just cause outsize deleterious consequences with them because discrimination made them the most vulnerable population in society).

Of all of these types of guys, he is by far the most sensible I've read. He's a little too keen to propose redistribution as the answer to literally everything, but other than that, I agree with the vast bulk of what he says.

[Vol]

Two additional thoughts:

1) The difference in how the two substance crises (opioids & crack) started might be somewhat notable but I think operationally they end up in the same place, largely because of the internet. Opioid abuse may have started because of overly indulgent doctors, but the big spike in deaths is largely due to fentanyl, which is being exported from China in large amounts and is easy to buy online, no doctor needed. I think you would likely see a class difference here among white people, just as much between white people generally and black people generally. I expect the middle-class road to addiction is more of the indulgent doctor and the white trash road is more in fentanyl.

Right, the drug of choice is an economic decision, but since we're talking opiods specifically, those seem to be culling the white, middle age, middle class. Which implies a couple decades of poor physical condition catching up to them, and overly generous doctors prescribing opiods to make them happy, rather than pursuing tough love, as other patients might receive. And then when they are cut off from the legal prescriptions, well, now you have an opiod addiction, which I understand is tremendously difficult to rein in, and you turn to street drugs, and so it goes. So I would think that if any bloc of addicts have a better chance of not descending to the endpoint (total addiction, poverty, overdose), it'd be the ones who start with a doctor's blessing.

He spends a huge portion of the book propounding the need for prophetic black leadership, black grassroots community-building and activism, and honest analysis of black cultural problems (and general cultural problems because most of the cultural problems faced by black people aren't really unique to them. The problems just cause outsize deleterious consequences with them because discrimination made them the most vulnerable population in society).

Of all of these types of guys, he is by far the most sensible I've read. He's a little too keen to propose redistribution as the answer to literally everything, but other than that, I agree with the vast bulk of what he says.

That's a succinct way of putting it. Though I'd compound on consequences, as historical discrimination then caused the equal but opposite reaction, which is also harmful. Because black people were literally slaves, underpaid, and underhired, we therefore subsidize unsustainable communities, economies, and households, but also demand non-merit based employment decisions. Because black people were lynched, beaten, raped, and harassed, it is bigoted (Outside of specific venues) to bring up them doing the same to others at disproportionate levels. Because whites were the standard of beauty and masculinity, and the default in entertainment, now we must elevate the non-white (Male, mostly, white women get a pass because of intersectionalism) by sandbagging the old and viciously suppressing criticism. And so on.

So as a reaction to historical, systemic wrongdoings, there's a hard swing the other way, which coddles, and therefore encourages, corrosive behavior. A collective guilt that dominates the cultural narrative, and in stamping out any critique with scarlet letters, imparts a learned helplessness on the people its attempting to uplift. White Man's Burden 2.0, less violent, more maternal fascism.

Best I can think of is to reform drug laws, grant block pardons to non-violent offenders of the old ones, reform welfare to incentivize stable families and working even a shit job over not working at all, and otherwise not tolerate the bullshit we currently do, but not impose our own well-meaning bullshit on struggling communities. Obviously, far more complex than this, but the gist should suffice. True salvation comes from within, and as black people are people, they are entirely capable of getting their own house in order. That West fellow you cite, seems like he would be a place to start, albeit with less communism.

[Vol]

The FBI and DOJ are officially under investigation, according to the minority (Dems) at a House Intel Committee press briefing about the FISA memo right now.

Edit: They voted to release the memo, has to get Trump's okay first, they voted against releasing the Democrat's rebuttal memo.

[Mobius_118]

Seems like obstruction to me.

And the trump administration claims they have nothing to hide... This is essentially an admission of guilt.

[Vol]

Oh, I phrased that poorly. Other way around, the Dems are upset with this, the investigation is implied to be for the FISA court stuff. Trump has 5 days to okay/nay the memo, or the full House votes on it.

[Vol]

Alright, I'm calling it now. Trump will release the memo. It will not contain any information that can lead to actually prosecutable action on its own. Might be some investigations, firings, people resign, but it'll all be within the realm of immoral use of the law rather than crimes.

Right-wing media will try to blow it up big, but lack the number of venues and legitimacy to make it into a big scandal, left-wing outlets will bury it and run damage control. In a month, it'll be largely forgotten because Trump said something profane about Mexican truck drivers.