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Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

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Sinekein
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 18th, 2018, 1:45 pm

No, thei're not supporters. They ARE Sjw. The staggering majority of them. And the journalists following their work too. Like a month or two ago there was this big buzz because with Bendis leaving Marvel "Finally a black writer will be writing Miles Morales' Spiderman!!!" like that is some major milestone, or makes the character and the future stories involving him better. Or remember how last year they wanted to retcon Captain America into being an Hydra/nazi sleeper agent all along, to make an heavy-handed nod to Trump's america, and were calling everyone racist neckbeard morons for not liking it?


Well okay, many writers indeed lean on the liberal side of things, which might have something to do with how being a writer is perceived as a whole - they're not the only ones though, and there are prominent libertarian/conservative comics writers who haven't been outed as complete nutjobs like Frank Miller.

But the diversity among authors is not something that should be ignored. Because even when they want to properly write about genders or ethnicities or cultures they don't belong to, it's quite likely for authors to just miss the target or falling into clichéx that range from facepalm-worthy to outright offensive. So having Miles Morales written by a black author is not meaningless. Ms Marvel achieved success because of how well-written she is, and her two authors are a muslim convert and a Pakistani-American.

I highly doubt, for example, that a white author could have created the Luke Cage series, which is shock-full of references to black culture. Black Panther would probably also have been pretty different.

I think it also works for female authors, who tend to just be better for characterization of female characters. I have read a number of fantasy novels now, and male authors tend to be pretty bad at creating three-dimensional women - which doesn't mean that their books are bad, see Scott Lynch or Patrick Rothfuss for example - while female authors like Marion Zimmer Bradley, Robin Hobb or Lois McMaster Bujold have no issue doing it. It's not always incredibly significant (like the difference between men writing Red Sonja, and Gail Simone writing Red Sonja - pretty much a rift), but I think the sample I can pick from is large enough to be significant. Which doesn't meant that female authors are better overall, mind you.

Also there's very few things in pop culture that can be as approcheable as superhero comics, and it has very little if anything to do with the race and gender of the characters. Just make good stories and good characters and the audience will come. You don't need to be a rich white guy to like IronMan, or to be a black person to think Black Panther is a cool and badass character.


I honestly consider this an issue where as a white guy I just can't have an unbiased opinion, because since I was little I have seen hundreds of heroes who just looked like me and with whom I could identify. So it's definitely not my place to say that the origins or ethnicity or gender of a character does not factor into how much you relate to it.

If you're black, or gay, or female, you are less likely to strongly relate to Oliver Queen or Tony Stark. That doesn't mean that you won't like them, just that they probably won't be the heroes you identify the most with. I've read many people saying how much having fictional characters "that looked like them" mattered - especially when they had to go through some kind of discrimination. It has the bad side consequence of some people being attached to them to the point of irrationality (like in the recent Batwoman case), but more often (and silently) than not it is simply beneficial.

Jubilee is chinese-american. And so is Daken, the son of Wolverine (if I remember correctly, his mother was chinese, and he was raised by a japanese foster family). Also I can easily name a fair few others non-mutant characters of asian origin. Radioctive Man is chinese. Mantis I think is a vietnamese american (or at least her human half, she's not a full alien in the comics). The Big Hero 6 are japanese, and yes thei're Marvel too. There's a street fighter named Shang-Chi that is literally meant to be an homage to Bruce Li in both looks and fighstyle. Coleen Wing is japanese american. And these are just a few.


I was more thinking of characters similar to Miles Morales, but Asian-American instead, like Kamala Khan. Many of those examples are villains (not exactly the characters you expect readers to create strong bonds with) or Asians who eventually arrive in America (I think Armor is another X-Men example).

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Sinekein
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 18th, 2018, 1:54 pm

TTTX wrote:Well Marvel have had some really badly written comics with so called SJW characters and well it hasn't gotten well for them or marvel for pretty good while. It's one of the reasons why Marvel are going back to bringing back some of the old school characters simply because Marvel bought way to much change to quickly and good portion was poorly executed to say the least.


It ultimately comes down to quality. When a race or gender lift brings nothing, then all readers are left with is focusing on that change. If it's well-written and interesting, then the change has a purpose and tells something new.

TTTX wrote:I don't see an Ironheart or Korean hulk movie any time soon I kinda suspect Warmachine and She-hulk will probably take over for Hulk and Ironman in MCU before doing those two first probably to ease the other two in later as Ironheart is still rather new to the comics and is still in the process off finding her place and doesn't have that many supporting characters, as for Korean hulk well you are going to need some good writing to explain how he got the same powers as the hulk since you can't do the comic book version of it as that tech doesn't exist as far as we know to transfer ones power to someone else in the MCU.


I say they kinda owe it to Rhodes, who has so far just been a sidekick until he got injured - and now I think he's been erased? In any event, poor guy can't catch a break, so he deserves better.

Raga wrote:However I would rather the movie be a sausage fest then the female characters feel like they are just check marks in boxes. Or when they are there for no purpose but to be eye candy or to give male characters something to rescue or when they are all presented as nags or drudge's or whatever.


I agree with that - and male authors tend to be more guilty of that than female ones. Not to say that all are, or that all female authors avoid sexist clichés (I read something named...the Quickening maybe? By Fiona MacIntosh? In any event, it was eye-gougingly insufferable when it comes to those clichés-, but the trend I've witnessed is that having a woman involved in the writing process helps with the characterization. Like Wonder Woman, which managed to avoid a number of potholes, and the fact that it was written and filmed by women probably played a role in it.

But I also enjoy some sausage fest stories. I mentioned Locke Lamora as one of my favorite fantasy books and it kinda falls in that category (less so in the second one) which does not make it any less enjoyable.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 2:22 pm

Sinekein wrote:It ultimately comes down to quality. When a race or gender lift brings nothing, then all readers are left with is focusing on that change. If it's well-written and interesting, then the change has a purpose and tells something new.

and that one of problems with a good number of Marvel's titles for a very long time, well that and they were also very on the nose with some SJW stuff that it wasn't even funny.

Sinekein wrote:I say they kinda owe it to Rhodes, who has so far just been a sidekick until he got injured - and now I think he's been erased? In any event, poor guy can't catch a break, so he deserves better.

Well he didn't get erased, but I think he deserve it at least more the Ironheart does anyway.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 18th, 2018, 2:46 pm

Sinekein wrote:Well okay, many writers indeed lean on the liberal side of things, which might have something to do with how being a writer is perceived as a whole - they're not the only ones though, and there are prominent libertarian/conservative comics writers who haven't been outed as complete nutjobs like Frank Miller.

But the diversity among authors is not something that should be ignored. Because even when they want to properly write about genders or ethnicities or cultures they don't belong to, it's quite likely for authors to just miss the target or falling into clichéx that range from facepalm-worthy to outright offensive. So having Miles Morales written by a black author is not meaningless. Ms Marvel achieved success because of how well-written she is, and her two authors are a muslim convert and a Pakistani-American.

I highly doubt, for example, that a white author could have created the Luke Cage series, which is shock-full of references to black culture. Black Panther would probably also have been pretty different.


Diversity among authors is a great thing. I think it's pretty important to keep things fresh and interesting to get some cultural cross-pollination and as many different point of views into the writing of an ongoing narrative as possible, as long as there's some consistency and ground rules everyone has to follow. The problem is the things seem to be moving in a very different direction. There's plenty of authors and artists of conservative views, or left leaning but not to the extreme, that have been cast aside from the mainstream comic book world at the first occasion. And there seems to be this stupid consensus that only black people should work on black characters, only gay people should work on gay characters and so on. How about we just get talented people, and let them work on whatever series or character in need of a good author to nurture it, rather than being overly
concerned about the color or sexuality of either?

And funny you mention Luke Cage, since the four people who originally came up with the characters were all white males, who just really liked blacksploitation movies and were inspired by those. I'm really not a fan of the whole "you must be as similar as possible to the character to write it in an interesting or appropriate way", I get it can help catching certain nuances an "outsider" might not know, but that can't be the only criteria imoh.

Sinekein wrote:I honestly consider this an issue where as a white guy I just can't have an unbiased opinion, because since I was little I have seen hundreds of heroes who just looked like me and with whom I could identify. So it's definitely not my place to say that the origins or ethnicity or gender of a character does not factor into how much you relate to it.

If you're black, or gay, or female, you are less likely to strongly relate to Oliver Queen or Tony Stark. That doesn't mean that you won't like them, just that they probably won't be the heroes you identify the most with. I've read many people saying how much having fictional characters "that looked like them" mattered - especially when they had to go through some kind of discrimination. It has the bad side consequence of some people being attached to them to the point of irrationality (like in the recent Batwoman case), but more often (and silently) than not it is simply beneficial.


I don't know. Maybe I just have the wrong, or an unusual, mindset, but I just never thought of other people, in fiction or not, as "they're like me" and "they're different than me". We're all unique to some extent, expecting to see a close approxiamation of ourselves in other people seems extremely narcisistic to me. I guess that explains why I have zero problem enjoying both american and japanese media, despite italians being nigh-absent from both, except for when there's some cooking or mob involved gag or sterotype to be played. Again, I understand the importance of diversity in media, I just don't think we should reduce it to an obsession with rapresentation quotas, and I especially don't trust when the people claiming that are mostly extreme-left white people advocating for groups they don't even are a part of.

Sinekein wrote:I was more thinking of characters similar to Miles Morales, but Asian-American instead, like Kamala Khan. Many of those examples are villains (not exactly the characters you expect readers to create strong bonds with) or Asians who eventually arrive in America (I think Armor is another X-Men example).


Asian-american there's quite a few of too. Especially in teenage heroes groups. But there seems to be less of a focus on their original religion and culture, I will admit. Maybe because asian-american have been mostly accepted for decades at this point, and their culture and belief system is very obviously not as much of an hot topic as the muslim way of life, for example.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 18th, 2018, 3:11 pm

Raga wrote:For what it's worth, I am a woman and I hate when movies do this as if there is just some quota of "we need to put in X number of people with tits and that'll work" and no real call for depth or quality. Do I enjoy when there are female leads or high quality female characters present more than I enjoy movies that don't have that? In all honesty yeah probably. However I would rather the movie be a sausage fest then the female characters feel like they are just check marks in boxes. Or when they are there for no purpose but to be eye candy or to give male characters something to rescue or when they are all presented as nags or drudge's or whatever.


My point exactly. Have as many female or diverse character as you want but have them be good characters and be featured in a good story. Don't act like having more vaginas on screen or whatever other diversity quota you go after automatically makes your story worthwhile. It's just becoming an excuse to be lazy and invest very little effort into your story, or the story you're taking over.

Ghosbusters 2016 would have been just as "meh" if the leads were four white straight dudes all named Chad. But the writer/director instead to this day still pretends he made a great movie, and that it flopped only because of sexist neckbeards. And not a single lesson was learned.

A very recent example of this kind of stuff is the new Buffy series that is in the works. The press release for it could literally be re-assumed in "We don't even know if it's gonna be canon with the original or not. But we DO know we're going to cast a black girl as the lead, so you should like it!"

As for Last Jedi, Old Man Luke was indeed one of the best thing in it, but more because of poor Mark Hamill still putting all he had in the character despite the shit script. Or that's at least my opinon on that.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Raga » August 18th, 2018, 3:41 pm

Sinekein wrote:If you're black, or gay, or female, you are less likely to strongly relate to Oliver Queen or Tony Stark. That doesn't mean that you won't like them, just that they probably won't be the heroes you identify the most with. I've read many people saying how much having fictional characters "that looked like them" mattered - especially when they had to go through some kind of discrimination. It has the bad side consequence of some people being attached to them to the point of irrationality (like in the recent Batwoman case), but more often (and silently) than not it is simply beneficial.


I can say for myself at least that this doesn't matter in the slightest. Many of my favorite characters are male and I never felt like there was some intrinsic barrier between my understanding or appreciation of them because they are male. When I play role playing games I play both male and female characters and I've never identified less with the male characters than I did with the female. In fact in some cases I felt like the story actually suited the male character better and I liked him more and my Canon character ended up being male. Such is the case for DA2

The problem comes in two forms. One is when a writer presents maleness or femaleness as having this inscrutable, intrinsic quality that the other sex can never understand and never the twain shall meet. You mentioned Patrick Rothfuss. I actually think he's guilty of this. Kvothe is very much presented as being this male archetype who is an obvious wish-fulfillment and also a kind of wish fulfillment that it's natural for somebody to wish for simply because they are male, when really he's just an arrogant asshole.

The other is when the story presents a given gender basically having no business in a particular role or character archetype. Like there's people that threw a fit about the pirate captain in the second book in the Locke Lamora series because "who ever heard of a female pirate captain?" Those people can fuck off.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 18th, 2018, 3:58 pm

And there seems to be this stupid consensus that only black people should work on black characters, only gay people should work on gay characters and so on. How about we just get talented people, and let them work on whatever series or character in need of a good author to nurture it, rather than being overly concerned about the color or sexuality of either?


It shouldn't be "only", but if you want to write the adventures of a gay character, then it can't hurt to hire a gay author, if you want that character's perspective to reflect what it means to be gay. Most works of fiction have been created by straight white males - not a criticism, just a fact - so their perspective has become the norm. And that's also why you have so many straight white male heroes, not because authors inherently hate black or gay or female characters, but because authors write about what they know. Especially in an escapist medium like comic books.

An example is Blue is the Warmest Color - not superhero, but a comic book adaptation. It won the Palme d'Or in Cannes a few years back, and the original Bande Dessinée was written by a gay woman, and told the story of a lesbian romance. The movie was adapted by a (straight, AFAIK) man, and pretty much every lesbian mentioned that while it's really good to see gay romances on the big screen and that the movie is excellent, the sex scene that was part of it was not how lesbians actually had sex - it's how a straight man thinks lesbians have sex (think Pornhub).

While it's an extreme example, there are many small details that writers might get wrong if they try to write about characters with traits that are too different from their own. Those might be negligible enough, but they can also be quite bad.

And funny you mention Luke Cage, since the four people who originally came up with the characters were all white males, who just really liked blacksploitation movies and were inspired by those. I'm really not a fan of the whole "you must be as similar as possible to the character to write it in an interesting or appropriate way", I get it can help catching certain nuances an "outsider" might not know, but that can't be the only criteria imoh.


Luke Cage was created in an era where black people could barely get into public transportation, let alone become comic book authors. All early black characters were created by white authors (and all early female characters were created by male authors). But while the creation of those characters is a great thing, they also were chock full of clichés that bordered or sometimes outright crossed into racist territory. Mariah Stokes is a great character, but the original CB Black Mariah? She was horrendously offensive.

I don't know. Maybe I just have the wrong, or an unusual, mindset, but I just never thought of other people, in fiction or not, as "they're like me" and "they're different than me". We're all unique to some extent, expecting to see a close approxiamation of ourselves in other people seems extremely narcisistic to me. I guess that explains why I have zero problem enjoying both american and japanese media, despite italians being nigh-absent from both, except for when there's some cooking or mob involved gag or sterotype to be played. Again, I understand the importance of diversity in media, I just don't think we should reduce it to an obsession with rapresentation quotas, and I especially don't trust when the people claiming that are mostly extreme-left white people advocating for groups they don't even are a part of.


Everyone is different in that regard. I often play games as female PC despite not being female myself. But some players like for their avatar to be as close as possible as them, and I assume it's the same with how people relate to the hero-in-es of what they watch or read. I also enjoy medias from countries different than my own, but it's not that rare for me to cringe when I see how French culture is represented. Not because I'm offended by it, because I don't feel like French culture as a whole is mocked overall, but because it could easily have been corrected just by asking someone French to doublecheck.

On a sidenote, I wonder if there is more faithfulness in the depictions or Italian culture than French culture in the US due to the Italian-American community being quite influential.

Asian-american there's quite a few of too. Especially in teenage heroes groups. But there seems to be less of a focus on their original religion and culture, I will admit. Maybe because asian-american have been mostly accepted for decades at this point, and their culture and belief system is very obviously not as much of an hot topic as the muslim way of life, for example.


It makes sense, "alternate" superhero teams tend to be much more diverse than the mainstay ones that are the Avengers or the Justice League. I have the Earth-2 comics from the New 52, and while it's never made into a plot point, its cast is incredibly diverse - you have Green Lantern (gay), Hawkgirl (latin-american), Dr Fate (Egyptian), Mr Terrific (black), Superman (black), Red Tornado (female), Aquawoman, led by Amar Kahn (Indian) with his right-hand woman Sonia Sato (asian-american). And even among the white guys, you have a nice age diversity between Jimmy Olsen whose a kid while Batman and Sandman are over fifty or sixty. Again, the diversity of the cast is never mentioned nor relevant, but I found it extremely nice to read through (plus it made the "worldwide threat" storyline feel more organic).

I can say for myself at least that this doesn't matter in the slightest. Many of my favorite characters are male and I never felt like there was some intrinsic barrier between my understanding or appreciation of them because they are male. When I play role playing games I play both male and female characters and I've never identified less with the male characters than I did with the female. In fact in some cases I felt like the story actually suited the male character better and I liked him more and my Canon character ended up being male. Such is the case for DA2


I'm in a similar boat (I even think that Jane Shepard is now my "default canon" because Garrus and her match so incredibly well for the trilogy) as mentioned above, but I don't think I am in a majority. If I was the avatar sex-ratio in various games would be much closer to 50%.

The problem comes in two forms. One is when a writer presents maleness or femaleness as having this inscrutable, intrinsic quality that the other sex can never understand and never the twain shall meet. You mentioned Patrick Rothfuss. I actually think he's guilty of this. Kvothe is very much presented as being this male archetype who is an obvious wish-fulfillment and also a kind of wish fulfillment that it's natural for somebody to wish for simply because they are male, when really he's just an arrogant asshole.

The other is when the story presents a given gender basically having no business in a particular role or character archetype. Like there's people that threw a fit about the pirate captain in the second book in the Locke Lamora series because "who ever heard of a female pirate captain?" Those people can fuck off.


I'm not even sure wish-fulfillment is what I would blame Rothfuss for. I can like a magnetic hero, ala Arsène Lupin. But it becomes annoying when you realize the opposite sex exists only to react around his presence. There are a few guys with a non Kvothe-centric agenda in Name of the Wind, but not women (at least not in the first book, and I didn't go further).

Scott Lynch does not write many more female characters in his books, but they have a meaning outside of Locke and Jean. Remove them, and Sabetha would still be robbing the world (probably even moreso for lack of competition).

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Raga » August 18th, 2018, 4:09 pm

Locke Lamora is magnetic and he's fine. He's not a main character but Varric from Dragon Age is magnetic and he's great. I read a negative review for Name of the Wind once which I think is accurate which just said "a novel for people who feel like they weren't popular in college."

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 18th, 2018, 4:19 pm

Sinekein wrote:It shouldn't be "only", but if you want to write the adventures of a gay character, then it can't hurt to hire a gay author, if you want that character's perspective to reflect what it means to be gay. Most works of fiction have been created by straight white males - not a criticism, just a fact - so their perspective has become the norm. And that's also why you have so many straight white male heroes, not because authors inherently hate black or gay or female characters, but because authors write about what they know. Especially in an escapist medium like comic books.


Yet some of the current authors have been writing some of the most boring and clichèd characters in comic history, despite belonging to the diverse groups thei're writing about. A good example are the current Iceman comics, who are written by a gay guy. In them, Iceman has been turned into an extremely stereotypical gay Gary Stu, and about 2/3s of his first series (it got canned, but there's a new one coming) were spend on him trying his first gay this and his first gay that, and embarassing his family who have been retconned into being the classic "Hurr durr, I dunt have son anymore!" kind of parents.

Iceman's dad btw at one point got beaten nearly to death by anti-mutant activists because he loved his son no matter what he was and he was proud of him being a mutant and a superhero. But I guess him also being gay was too much and he had to be rewritten as an old white asshole.

Such good, nuanced, writing. Clearly an IRL gay writer was necessary to come up with it lol

That aside, I'm not going to requote you for the umptheen time. It was a very interesting conversation overall. Especially considering how quickly things tend to denegerate around here when we get political. It was very nice to have something that felt like a genuine exchange of opinions for once. I think ultimately we agree about the importance of diversity in media, but not so much in wheter or not is being mishandled or turned into a gimmik. Best I can add is that I wish I had that slightly more optimistic view of the situation you seem to have. I'm tired of getting angry and frustrated at escapism for political reasons, I can definately tell you that.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 4:54 pm

Alienmorph wrote:Yet some of the current authors have been writing some of the most boring and clichèd characters in comic history, despite belonging to the diverse groups thei're writing about. A good example are the current Iceman comics, who are written by a gay guy. In them, Iceman has been turned into an extremely stereotypical gay Gary Stu, and about 2/3s of his first series (it got canned, but there's a new one coming) were spend on him trying his first gay this and his first gay that, and embarassing his family who have been retconned into being the classic "Hurr durr, I dunt have son anymore!" kind of parents.

Iceman's dad btw at one point got beaten nearly to death by anti-mutant activists because he loved his son no matter what he was and he was proud of him being a mutant and a superhero. But I guess him also being gay was too much and he had to be rewritten as an old white asshole.

Such good, nuanced, writing. Clearly an IRL gay writer was necessary to come up with it lol

and that's not even counting the terrible way, Bobby was revealed to be gay, which basically was young Jean Grey "reading" his mind and keep telling him he is gay, until he agrees to her statement.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Riptide » August 18th, 2018, 5:03 pm

As someone who is all over the LGBT spectrum, who considers themselves a classical feminist (i.e. that women should have EQUAL rights to men), I really am sick of these SJW politics making their way into modern media. And the reason I hate it so much is it actually hurts the causes these asshat claim to be promoting.

Like, you look at something like The Last Jedi where they VERY CLEARLY have an agenda where women are infallible and perfect and everyone should just listen to them, and you end up with a bunch of Mary Sues and plotholes because nothing they do makes no sense. Instead of Rey being a total badass who earns her place in the Star Wars pantheon despite coming from nothing, she's given everything and is better at everything than everyone and everyone loves her and she has no clear fucking motivations or character. I fucking hate these pandering cunts who think the only way you can identify with a character is by their gender and orientation, and that when you're trying to represent a strong female character or gay characters or whatever the fuck, that it means they can't have flaws and they have to be better than everyone else.

Contrast with a series that gets it right, Steven Universe. Where the fact that gay characters like Pearl are characters first and all the rest of it second. Did she have the hots for Rose? FUCK YEAH. Did it seriously impact her life? FUCK YEAH. Is it the only thing that defines her? FUCK NO.

It's the difference between an activist like Rebecca Sugar and a fucking SJW like Kathleen Kennedy. One of them believes in what they're doing, the other just wants to get attention or leave behind a legacy or something else that doesn't come from a place of genuine caring but from somewhere cynical and dishonest.

Give me all the gays and lesbians and trans and strong females you got. Just don't insult me by making them fucking perfect little angels that never have to earn it, or at the expense of whites, males, straights, ect. You can have Rey be cool and awesome without her showing up Luke or Kylo or Han in every single fucking scene, Christ.

The older I get, the more bitter I'm becoming, and it sucks.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 5:38 pm

I wouldn't say Rey is a mary sue personally, she grew on a dessert world abandon by her parents growing with legends of the original trilogy, she didn't have much to stay for, might as well hang out with the heroes she loves so much. She does get kidnapped and she isn't always right (Ben Solo being the best example), but she does the best she can it works out well for her most of the time.

She gets some of her skills rather fast, but she grew fighting with her staf so at least have some fighting experience with mele weapons and got some more through the force bond with Ben (which is something we have seen in legends, just play Knight of the Republic 2 the Sith lords).

Rose and Female admiral character are/were considerable worse, at least with Rey I get the feeling she wants to help people even if they are evil as fuck like young Luke did back in the day, even if the execution could have been a lot better.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 18th, 2018, 5:59 pm

I wasn't shocked by Rey's perfection, mostly because TLJ has always looked to me as "almost exactly identical to A New Hope". So instead of going to a desert planet to find (soon-to-be) Orphan Luke and his faithful robotic buddy, who proves to be an ace at pretty much everything he tries once he starts traveling the galaxy, we get Rey...who is just the genderbent version.

Maybe Luke is grumpy in VIII because he realizes how annoying he must have been back in his youth.

There's also a matter of taste and personal experience, and how much correlation there needs to be between one's experience and what the character goes through. Some members of the LGBT community for example have had it rough due to their sexual orientation, but I assume some like to see fictional characters overcoming the same kinds of struggles, while others might enjoy seeing fictional characters who don't have to suffer due to who they are.

Sci-Fi is great in that it allows both allegories and utopias. The former tend to be metaphors for real-life issues - Quarian-Geth relationship, for example - while the latter can depict what happens when problems have been solved - like the Hanar-Drell relationship, even though it is not as prominent.

I'll add that I also tend to prefer to see characters overcoming challenges instead of being gifted everything.

That aside, I'm not going to requote you for the umptheen time. It was a very interesting conversation overall. Especially considering how quickly things tend to denegerate around here when we get political. It was very nice to have something that felt like a genuine exchange of opinions for once. I think ultimately we agree about the importance of diversity in media, but not so much in wheter or not is being mishandled or turned into a gimmik. Best I can add is that I wish I had that slightly more optimistic view of the situation you seem to have. I'm tired of getting angry and frustrated at escapism for political reasons, I can definately tell you that.


It was nice indeed.

And it's not that hard to feel optimistic, I'd say logging out of all the online drama once in a while helps tremendously. I did it for the last year+, and it can be liberating. Like getting "Batwoman TV show is in the works" without "Ruby Rose leaves social media due to harassment". You only get the announcements, and overall, I'd say diversity is growing at a personally satisfying rate. Even if the shows themselves aren't always satisfying - e.g. Runaways.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 6:08 pm

Sinekein wrote:I wasn't shocked by Rey's perfection, mostly because TLJ has always looked to me as "almost exactly identical to A New Hope". So instead of going to a desert planet to find (soon-to-be) Orphan Luke and his faithful robotic buddy, who proves to be an ace at pretty much everything he tries once he starts traveling the galaxy, we get Rey...who is just the genderbent version.

I think you are confusing The Force Awakens with The Last Jedi.
TFA was basically a new hope in story and execution for the most part, TLJ was Empire strikes back and Return of the Jedi thrown into one with a lot of playing with people's expectations.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 18th, 2018, 6:16 pm

Aaaah yes. My bad.

Well I didn't really like TLJ, but for reasons different than what has been mentioned here - namely, that after "let's redo the same movie" TFA (which didn't bothered me too much, after all, A New Hope was a great movie and it's nice to see how it could have looked with modern technology), it looked like the writers gathered and said "okay, they said the previous movie was too predictable, so now I want one twist every fifteen minutes". Which gives a story with horrendous pacing and a complete inability to build tension.

It was also too long. The Casino planet could be removed and nothing significant would be lost.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 6:27 pm

Sinekein wrote:Aaaah yes. My bad.

Well I didn't really like TLJ, but for reasons different than what has been mentioned here - namely, that after "let's redo the same movie" TFA (which didn't bothered me too much, after all, A New Hope was a great movie and it's nice to see how it could have looked with modern technology), it looked like the writers gathered and said "okay, they said the previous movie was too predictable, so now I want one twist every fifteen minutes". Which gives a story with horrendous pacing and a complete inability to build tension.

It was also too long. The Casino planet could be removed and nothing significant would be lost.

if the casino planet was removed, Luke would probably be alive and Rey a prisnor of Ben, which would be a better ending in my opinion and I didn't hate the last Jedi to honest, but then again I'm not a hardcore star wars fan or that big of a fan of star wars in general.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 18th, 2018, 6:29 pm

Riptide wrote:As someone who is all over the LGBT spectrum, who considers themselves a classical feminist (i.e. that women should have EQUAL rights to men), I really am sick of these SJW politics making their way into modern media. And the reason I hate it so much is it actually hurts the causes these asshat claim to be promoting.

Like, you look at something like The Last Jedi where they VERY CLEARLY have an agenda where women are infallible and perfect and everyone should just listen to them, and you end up with a bunch of Mary Sues and plotholes because nothing they do makes no sense. Instead of Rey being a total badass who earns her place in the Star Wars pantheon despite coming from nothing, she's given everything and is better at everything than everyone and everyone loves her and she has no clear fucking motivations or character. I fucking hate these pandering cunts who think the only way you can identify with a character is by their gender and orientation, and that when you're trying to represent a strong female character or gay characters or whatever the fuck, that it means they can't have flaws and they have to be better than everyone else.

Contrast with a series that gets it right, Steven Universe. Where the fact that gay characters like Pearl are characters first and all the rest of it second. Did she have the hots for Rose? FUCK YEAH. Did it seriously impact her life? FUCK YEAH. Is it the only thing that defines her? FUCK NO.

It's the difference between an activist like Rebecca Sugar and a fucking SJW like Kathleen Kennedy. One of them believes in what they're doing, the other just wants to get attention or leave behind a legacy or something else that doesn't come from a place of genuine caring but from somewhere cynical and dishonest.

Give me all the gays and lesbians and trans and strong females you got. Just don't insult me by making them fucking perfect little angels that never have to earn it, or at the expense of whites, males, straights, ect. You can have Rey be cool and awesome without her showing up Luke or Kylo or Han in every single fucking scene, Christ.

The older I get, the more bitter I'm becoming, and it sucks.


EXACTLY. I am tired, so so tired, of every female, LGBT or diverse character having to be turned in some sort of flawless paragon of virtue with no faults, nor weakness, nor humanity, because of the author's agendas and beliefs. And because having bad things happen to fictional characters apparently now is offensive, at least until they are female or diversity tokens, of course.

And Rey is the shining example of that... I mean...

She gets onboard the Millennium Falcon and learns how to pilot it WITHOUT A CO-PILOT better than Han ever could. On her first try.
She manages to pull Jedi tricks not even Anakin Skywalker, the supposed most powerful Force user of his generation, could do without training. On her first try.
She defeates Kylo Ren, the new trilogy's main antagonist... on their first duel.
She's this kind and brave and awe-inspiring person everyone wants to be with...including Kylo...
She defeates Luke fucking Skywalker in combat.
She lifts an whole mountain face worth of rocks and rubbe. Something not even Yoda could do in his primes. On. Her. First. Try.
And most insulting of all... she does all that in the span of... what? A few days? A week?

And her only real flaw is that she's upset she doesn't know where she comes from.

I mean... an hero/heroine's journey feels worthwhile only if the hero feels in some actual danger, or is put to the test. Rey, and most Mary Sue/Gary Stu never feel in danger, or like thei're on the verge of some earth-shattering moment of hardship. One of the reasons Luke was such a good main character was because he starts out as a damn BRAT. He's whiny, he's impulsive, is inexperienced, but he means well. He feels like a person, his flaws and his mistakes makes him look human and sympathetic.

How am I supposed to care or to sympatize with someone who's pretty much a demigod that succeeds at everything she does? Ffs.

Can we get a Knights of the Old Republic trilogy, with a well written version of Bastila in it instead... ?

And Rey and SW are just a very egregious example. If it wasn't clear by the previous... I suppose we can call it a debate... there's a whole slur of characters in comics that got lobotomized or replaced to fit SJW world views, and it makes me so mad, and frustrated, over something that was supposed to help me NOT to be mad and frustrated.

Sigh.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Mazder » August 18th, 2018, 6:50 pm

Sinekein wrote:I wasn't shocked by Rey's perfection, mostly because TLJ has always looked to me as "almost exactly identical to A New Hope". So instead of going to a desert planet to find (soon-to-be) Orphan Luke and his faithful robotic buddy, who proves to be an ace at pretty much everything he tries once he starts traveling the galaxy, we get Rey...who is just the genderbent version.

Maybe Luke is grumpy in VIII because he realizes how annoying he must have been back in his youth.

I am not really sure the Luke "proving to be an ace as pretty much everything he tries once he starts travelling the galaxy" is entirely accurate though.

Most of it kinda comes form his upbringing.
I mean taking the whole "lucky shot" for the Death Star out of the equation what does he actually "ace" the first time around?
Managing to shoot a TIE in the turret? Kinda important they get away, but even if her missed and just provided screening fire he would eventually at the very least clip one.
Able to fly with the Rebel pilots in the Death Star run? He's hinted at a flyer back home and TBH him keeping up with a ragtag group doesn't seem like "acing it".
"Bulls-eyeing Womp Rats" comment? How many of the rebel pilots do we know of had a background in the backwater/low rules/outlaw lands of the outer rim? Where standards a e low and despite everything Luke probably had a more free life, or at least a life that taught more skills, than the rebels around him.
Blocking the few blaster bolts with the lightsaber on the Falcon? First steps to Jedi training so, yeah, gotta have at least one instance of him trying and succeeding at something.

Now if we compare some of this to some stuff like Rey's got.
We have her scrounging for mechanical parts, fine, it's not bad to have she knows what parts she can find or even useable parts. Scrounging isn't the same as being able to build with said tools though, but her mechanical skills are hinted at when she just tears off a piece of circuitry on the Falcon and it just works despite we knowing that when Han tries to make anything work on that ship he needed to chase fault after fault, getting down into the rigging of the ship in order to fix it. On his own ship[, that he calls home.

She's automatically able to fly/pilot the Falcon, a small freighter, as good, if not better, than anyone we've seen before. Despite not being able to access the ships due to her lowest stature in the society she's in, as we see. I don't think we can really see her able to have ever been piloting before this moment, so that'd feel kinda fake.

All the Force related stuff I chalk up to her potentially being stronger in the Force than Luke was at the same age, but TBH it's a weak excuse and I am sure most of it was done to put in a "Force nostalgia". Like "remember the Mind Trick guys?!?!"

If anything Rey's skills seem less grounded than Luke's were as while she's good at scrounging she's not implied to have a like employed for fixing stuff in the same way Luke had. Luke worked the moisture farm day in, day out. When not on the farm he futzed around with buddies and did more stuff by accident than through skill because he was at play on Tatooine. Rey seems to being forced through by saying she has "skills" but they don't come out as organically for me.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 18th, 2018, 6:58 pm

Alienmorph wrote:She manages to pull Jedi tricks not even Anakin Skywalker, the supposed most powerful Force user of his generation, could do without training. On her first try.
She defeates Kylo Ren, the new trilogy's main antagonist... on their first duel.
She's this kind and brave and awe-inspiring person everyone wants to be with...including Kylo...
She defeates Luke fucking Skywalker in combat.

well it did take a few tries before she managed to do mind trick.
First of all Ben was shot in the chest by chewies gun (which is very powerful I might add), the fact that he was still alive let alone fighting is well pretty amazing so he had a handicap and he wasn't fully trained.
I'm pretty sure he is after her power since they both represent one side of the force and he is the dark one after all.
Well Luke only really fought his father in the original movies in lightsaber combat and let's be honest he was probably very rusty at the time after all it wasn't like he was fighting anything on the island like at all.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 18th, 2018, 7:06 pm

TTTX wrote:
Alienmorph wrote:She manages to pull Jedi tricks not even Anakin Skywalker, the supposed most powerful Force user of his generation, could do without training. On her first try.
She defeates Kylo Ren, the new trilogy's main antagonist... on their first duel.
She's this kind and brave and awe-inspiring person everyone wants to be with...including Kylo...
She defeates Luke fucking Skywalker in combat.

well it did take a few tries before she managed to do mind trick.
First of all Ben was shot in the chest by chewies gun (which is very powerful I might add), the fact that he was still alive let alone fighting is well pretty amazing so he had a handicap and he wasn't fully trained.
I'm pretty sure he is after her power since they both represent one side of the force and he is the dark one after all.
Well Luke only really fought his father in the original movies in lightsaber combat and let's be honest he was probably very rusty at the time after all it wasn't like he was fighting anything on the island like at all.


Yeah, I will say that you can find justifications for some of the stuff she does. But it's basically making excuses for the writers who didn't bother to give Rey some proper character development and rushed her from zero to hero because "Hey you want a Star Wars movie or not?"

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Raga » August 18th, 2018, 8:56 pm

I didn't think Rey was Mary Sue. A character being just awesome at stuff because they're especially strong in the force is something that's been done in the Star Wars Universe again and again. And she has a very flawed personality: she's defensive, she has trust issues, she has an inclination to want to run and or hide from trouble, she's practical to a fault with little to no imagination, she's serious to the point of being kind of scary, and she's obsessed with her past in a not healthy way.

I didn't find her beating Kylo to be that weird. As has already been stated he had been shot and was wounded, and the other thing is that he's deeply deeply conflicted which would of course screw with his ability to be truly potent in the dark side of the force. I think Kylo is running at like 60% of potential already just because he has such severe mental hang-ups.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Riptide » August 19th, 2018, 12:19 am

Raga wrote:I didn't think Rey was Mary Sue. A character being just awesome at stuff because they're especially strong in the force is something that's been done in the Star Wars Universe again and again. And she has a very flawed personality: she's defensive, she has trust issues, she has an inclination to want to run and or hide from trouble, she's practical to a fault with little to no imagination, she's serious to the point of being kind of scary, and she's obsessed with her past in a not healthy way.

I didn't find her beating Kylo to be that weird. As has already been stated he had been shot and was wounded, and the other thing is that he's deeply deeply conflicted which would of course screw with his ability to be truly potent in the dark side of the force. I think Kylo is running at like 60% of potential already just because he has such severe mental hang-ups.


That's not what I mean when I say she's a Mary Sue.

I want to stress it's not a term I throw around loosely. When I use the term, I generally mean a character exhibits the following traits:

Self Insert - Rey is a self-insert for Kathleen Kennedy, as is Qi'ra and Jin Erso. She's gone on record saying she wants every Star Wars movie to have a brunette being center stage.

Everyone Loves Her - Han offers her a spot on his ship, Finn's entire character motivation is centered around helping/finding Rey despite knowing each other for two minutes, Leia comforts her after Han's death and not Chewie, Snoke wants her brought to him, Kylo wants her, everyone wants/loves Rey. The only exception to this is Luke, but by the end even he is all 'She's the Last Jedi.' Hell, even Yoda comes back from the dead to ride Rey's dick.

She Never Earns Anything and is Good at Everything - Luke is the son of Vader and has obscene force potential. It takes him time to learn and master his abilities. Days, weeks, years. In the first movie, he learns to let go of what he thinks he knows and lets the force guide him to landing the shot against the deathstar. In the second movie, he starts learning how to move stuff with his mind. In the third, after a few years have gone by, he's shown doing mind tricks. Rey performs mindtricks, telekineses, and has a lightsaber duel with someone who has been training their whole life. wounds aside, and does it all in the span of a few hours. Without being told what the Force even is or being given any guidance, like Luke was. I was willing to let this go in TFA, because I thought they were setting it up that Rey and Kylo and Luke were supposed to be the reincarnations of the Father, Son, and Daughter, or Rey was supposed to be the next chosen one IE Revan or Anakin. I was willing to let the force potential thing go, because I think you can do gifted or naturally powerful characters, but she's so good at EVERYTHING. Luke's first time firing the Falcon's cannons? Misses a lot and gets two TIE kills. Rey's first time shooting the thing has her kill three TIEs in ONE FUCKING SHOT. She knows how the Falcon works better than Han does. When a character shows up and is not only super powerful (again something I think you can do and it actually be alright or even interesting) but is also upstaging other characters in doing the things they are best at, that is the textbook definition of what a Mary Sue is.

At the end of the day, a Mary Sue is a self-insert character whom everyone loves and who is better at everything than everyone else and exists for self gratification of the Author to be constantly told that their insert is awesome. And, really, I think Rey, in those terms, fits the bill perfectly.

If you like the character, hey, there's nothing wrong with liking something, and I don't begrudge that. But denying that there are serious flaws in terms of the storytelling that's going into Rey is to ignore a big problem with these movies, and in modern writing in general especially. I want Rey to be a successful character. I like the idea of a nobody coming in and shaking up the status quo in Star Wars.

I just think that's possible while not being a Mary Sue or exhibiting classical Mary Sue tendencies.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 19th, 2018, 4:31 am

Riptide wrote:Self Insert - Rey is a self-insert for Kathleen Kennedy, as is Qi'ra and Jin Erso. She's gone on record saying she wants every Star Wars movie to have a brunette being center stage.


She outright SAID that?! I did notice the pattern of course, but she had the balls openly say that was the plan?!?! Ffs.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Sinekein » August 19th, 2018, 5:29 am

The pattern is not only with Jyn and Rey, Padme and Leia belong to it too. It's been there since Star Wars movies have existed.

And no, she hasn't said it, it is something that has been deduced from the castings due to her having been part of production teams for the longest times.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 19th, 2018, 6:26 am

There is a major correlation between them tho ... Padme and Leia are mother and daughter.

Outside of that, there's no reason to have every SW movie ever to have a brown or dairk haired woman with a thick british accent among the main characters, other than producer ego and wanting desperately to keep some familiar elements in all of them.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Riptide » August 19th, 2018, 4:15 pm

Sinekein wrote:The pattern is not only with Jyn and Rey, Padme and Leia belong to it too. It's been there since Star Wars movies have existed.

And no, she hasn't said it, it is something that has been deduced from the castings due to her having been part of production teams for the longest times.


I could of sworn I saw a quote that stated it or insinuated it, but I may be wrong.

Still, I feel the pattern holds. Leia and Padme were fine, but the fact that every movie since has introduced a new character in exactly the same vein shows a pattern that's getting very old, in my opinion, and it seems pretty transparent to me.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 19th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Also it's not even just the movies. The main character of BattlEAfront II was also another dark-haired Mary Sue with a british accent, and the singleplayer campaign of that game was literally spent with her rescuing and getting praised by the main SW characters. And in the current comics Darth Vader got a new major frenemy named Aphra who's... you guessed it, a dark haired girl that's good at almost everything. Althought the current SW comics are one of the few decent to good things Marvel is making, so that actually feels less egregious.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Mazder » August 19th, 2018, 5:14 pm

Well so much as the British Accent goes I think they're doing the same thing Hollywood always does.
Bad Guys = The British.
If they're not Russian they're British.

Anyone in the Empire, or from the Empire, will be British.

But Jyn and Rey and Qira are defnitely of the whole "well the previous female leads were like that so we gotta do it the same, yet worse, right?!" vein.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:18 am

Alienmorph wrote:in the current comics Darth Vader got a new major frenemy named Aphra who's... you guessed it, a dark haired girl that's good at almost everything


I don't want to get involved in the debate that went on, I'm not in the mood for discussion on such topics, but let me just slip in and defend Aphra for a bit.

Aphra is essentially an evil female Indiana Jones, with a lot of connections to the galactic criminal underworld and black-market. To survive for long in such a lifestyle, surrounded by the most dangerous crime organizations, mercenaries, assassins, and bounty hunters, constantly looking for dangerous artifacts and technology on death worlds, while having to avoid the Empire and local gangs, she'd have to be pretty cunning, quick-thinking, skilled and resourceful. Incompetence and stupidity would get you killed really quick in such environments. It weeds out the fools. Its been shown many times that for the really big and dangerous jobs, she has teams of people helping her and she only gets away with those tasks because it was a team effort or her current ally/allies is/are way more powerful or knowledgable than she is. She's never depicted as being perfect; she's failed often, been almost killed more times than she can count and often only survived by the skin of her teeth, has fields in which she little or no experience, and is never praised by others by other mindlessly, or often for that matter. She's been enslaved to a pair of murderous psychopathic droids, and spent time in a super max space prison. She's lost fights and shootouts. Leia knocked her out with one punch once. Frequently she encounters dangers or enemies that are way out of her league, and she wisely runs away and lets other, better qualified people worry about such concerns. Its shown that her lifestyle and ruthless, callous choices are not bringing her true contentment if she's being completely honest with herself, but despite having had numerous chances to leave her current life behind if not redeem herself, she constantly refuses, for a lot of complex reasons. She's a very flawed individual, unhappy and broken in a lot of ways, held together by very fragile proverbial tape though she hides it well, with a drive to survive even if it means doing truly horrible things to other people. While she has her sympathetic moments, is not without her charm, and does have regret and guilt, she is not a good person, and the reader is never made to forget that. She is all too willing to commit murder, torture, and treachery. She has a very unhealthy obsession with weapons and technology that can be used to kill people combined with no concern how her buyers may use such items, lies constantly, is totally greedy, and will gladly leave you to die if she thinks it'll improve her odds of living to see tomorrow. She started out as total Vader fangfirl and had fun doing missions for him, but being around him she came to see just how evil and terrifying he was, realizing she was insignificant mote of dust in comparison to him, and grew out of it, and while she told him and herself than when the time came she'd be ready for when Vader would have to kill her in the future, in the end she was not. Ever since she managed to fake her death, which was a huge roll of the dice for her, she's lived in total fear of him discovering she's alive and coming for her to finish the job. I grant that recently, the writing for her has become much weaker, growing stale and banal. She's fallen victim to Flanderization, and as a result the character has suffered. But that's more on the writers than the character. But judging by the previews they've released, she may be nearing the end of her borrowed time as it looks like she bumps into Vader again. And as small a detail as it is, her dark hair does makes sense given she's the Star Wars equivalent of being Asian.
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:18 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:18 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:18 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:19 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:19 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:19 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 21st, 2018, 1:19 am

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Alienmorph » August 21st, 2018, 6:26 am

Dragaros wrote:
Alienmorph wrote:in the current comics Darth Vader got a new major frenemy named Aphra who's... you guessed it, a dark haired girl that's good at almost everything


I don't want to get involved in the debate that went on, I'm not in the mood for discussion on such topics, but let me just slip in and defend Aphra for a bit.


Like I said, the current comics are probably the best, or most tolerable, thing that came out of the whole Kathleen Kennedy Era of SW (SW: Rebels would be a very close second). I would say that Aphra still is an offspring of KK's "stronnng female character" trope, but she was left in the hands of more capable authors and turned out as a decent character. It's still silly they keep retconning big names like Vader and Han having had all this majorly important characters involved in their lives completely offscreen, but *shrugs* I guess some times you have to go that route if you don't want to just re-tell the movies.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby TTTX » August 21st, 2018, 7:43 am

the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:05 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:05 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:06 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:06 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:07 pm

Image

Image

"Behind the scenes pictures of Nick Castle (Michael Myers) enjoying a Dr Pepper on the set of Halloween 1978 and 2018."
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:08 pm

WHY ‘BABYLON 5’ IS PEAK ’90S SCI-FI TV

"Babylon 5 isn’t talked about nearly enough when discussing science-fiction series of the ’90s, and that’s a shame, as it’s undoubtedly one of the best series put out in that or any other decade. And if it’s been a while since you’ve seen the series, or if you’ve never seen it, then we have some good news. This fall, Babylon 5 is coming to COMET TV. Already the home of classic ’90s sci-fi series like SG-1 and The Outer Limits, COMET TV will be the perfect place to refamiliarize yourself with the ’90s greatness that is Babylon 5, so stay tuned for more info on when you can start watching this outstanding televised novel."
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 22nd, 2018, 6:08 pm

Seeing more and more Godzilla:KotM spoilers and detailed plot summaries popping up in the usual movie rumor mills from people who claim to have seen early cuts of the film. If you don't mind potentially spoiling yourself completely rotten, here's all of it:

► Show Spoiler
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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 23rd, 2018, 6:12 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 23rd, 2018, 6:12 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 23rd, 2018, 6:12 pm

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Re: Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

Postby Dragaros » August 24th, 2018, 3:23 pm

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