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Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

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Raga
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 22nd, 2018, 5:01 pm

TheodoricFriede wrote:Donald Trump was a Billionaire who could have funded his own campaign.

The electoral college exists so that 3 cities in the entirety of the United States, which is both enormous and has vastly differing populations from place to place, do not control everything in the country.

I find it incredibly amusing that the Electoral College is only "broken" during the extremely rare times it actually serves the purpose it was created for.


It is true that "removing the electoral college" is really just short hand for "California, Texas, New York, and Florida get to run everything" because that would be the practical result.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 22nd, 2018, 6:06 pm

TheodoricFriede wrote:
Sinekein wrote:
Yeah but you can change the rules on a variety of topics. Like campaign financing, to avoid what is currently happening. The Electoral College system is honestly obsolete in that day and age, it is great from a narrative point of view, but it does not even begin to make sense. The system is also too bipartisan, and it is hurting the country more than anything at the moment, there should be a real opportunity for other parties to rise (and fall).


Donald Trump was a Billionaire who could have funded his own campaign.

The electoral college exists so that 3 cities in the entirety of the United States, which is both enormous and has vastly differing populations from place to place, do not control everything in the country.

I find it incredibly amusing that the Electoral College is only "broken" during the extremely rare times it actually serves the purpose it was created for.

I mean you just have to look at a map of the US during the last election to know how much the big four population centers (LA, Chicago, New York and Houston) can outvote almost literally 90% of the rest of the country.
Putting that kind of power into the select few just doesn't work.

Raga wrote:
It is true that "removing the electoral college" is really just short hand for "California, Texas, New York, and Florida get to run everything" because that would be the practical result.

Pretty much.
I mean there has to be a more ideal solution but America as it stands would probably never go for it.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 23rd, 2018, 3:11 am

Donald Trump was a Billionaire who could have funded his own campaign.

The electoral college exists so that 3 cities in the entirety of the United States, which is both enormous and has vastly differing populations from place to place, do not control everything in the country.

I find it incredibly amusing that the Electoral College is only "broken" during the extremely rare times it actually serves the purpose it was created for.


The issue with campaign funding is not the amount of money, it's how shady support is - and how it is ultimately too influential on the policies of the elected people.

While I understand the reasoning behind the Electoral College, it also means that there is an inequality on voting power depending on where you live. But the biggest issue, to me, is that it turns presidential elections into a game a RISK. Again, it is hugely entertaining to follow, but it means that the policies that are proposed are not meant for the entire population as much as they are meant to convince swing state voters, who do not represent the majority of the population.

You can say that Alabama or California voters are basically irrelevant during the presidential election. If a State is blue or red enough, it might as well be ignored altogether, by both candidates.

With only a popular vote, then a Democratic candidate could not afford ignoring California, because there would be a difference between scoring 60, 70 or 80% there. And a Republican candidate would have to ensure it gets the highest possible score in Texas. As it stands, the effect of the Electoral College reverses its original intent by making some small populations have an enormous voting power, far more than what was likely originally intended.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 23rd, 2018, 3:16 am

Sinekein wrote:
While I understand the reasoning behind the Electoral College, it also means that there is an inequality on voting power depending on where you live.

Negating the inequality of voting power is precisely the purpose the electoral collage serves.

If the fate of the entire country could be decided by three major population centers, then any vote outside of those population centers is inherently unequal.

Removing the electoral collage will not suddenly produce more liberals in Texas and more conservatives in California.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 23rd, 2018, 4:46 am

Negating the inequality of voting power is precisely the purpose the electoral collage serves.

If the fate of the entire country could be decided by three major population centers, then any vote outside of those population centers is inherently unequal.


But instead, the fate of the entire country is decided by Florida and 10 small states, which is also inherently unequal.

Without the electoral college, you would still have liberal or conservative-leaning states - which will elect governors and senators according to their opinion - but everyone's vote during the presidential election would count.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 23rd, 2018, 4:56 am

Sinekein wrote:
But instead, the fate of the entire country is decided by Florida and 10 small states, which is also inherently unequal.

Without the electoral college, you would still have liberal or conservative-leaning states - which will elect governors and senators according to their opinion - but everyone's vote during the presidential election would count.

It is not unequal to give a voice to smaller states and swing states.

And none of this changes the fact that 3 major cities would control the entire country. That is a far bigger tragedy.

The people complaining are the people that didn't want Trump to win. If a situation occurred in which Hilary won the electoral collage and Trump won the popular vote, all the liberals would be arguing that the Electoral College is fair, and all the conservatives would argue that it should be removed. Do not try to pretend otherwise.

Our system is functioning as intended.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 23rd, 2018, 5:11 am

Trump knew exactly what he was doing in the elections. He targeted every single area other than the three big population centers. He made sure he had a decent base in the big three, but he mainly made sure to have just enough from the big three that the Democrats couldn't simply outvote him easily in three areas that have always kind of been left leaning in general.

By securing everywhere small he built up his numbers slowly and surely to the point where the "loss" of the big population centers ended up becoming his solid foundation to begin his win.

The Democrats on the other hand focused hard on their big three population centers and largely ignored the rural areas because that's their MO. They've always been for the big, dense areas as they're the type of people they know how to relate to. They don't know how to relate to the farmer, or the miner or the fisherman.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 23rd, 2018, 5:16 am

But why is it better to have 10 random states instead of the most popular areas of the country being the deciding forces?

All democracies in the world bar the USA have a system where the actual popular vote matters, and they overall work quite well. They are not favoring liberals over conservatives either - Germany works like that and Merkel (right-wing) has been in charge for more than 10 years, after 8 years or so of Schroeder (left-wing) who had succeeded Kohl (right-wing).

I also fail to see how it would be a tragedy if major cities had more weight to elect the president than minor ones. If they are major, it's because more people live there, ergo, they should be more influential. It's not about being liberal as much as it is about being fair. If the GOP was not becoming more extreme every day, it would stand a serious chance to woo voters outside of its traditional electorate, like successful middle-class black or latino people, which means improving its score in those "major cities".

The people complaining are the people that didn't want Trump to win. If a situation occurred in which Hilary won the electoral collage and Trump won the popular vote, all the liberals would be arguing that the Electoral College is fair, and all the conservatives would argue that it should be removed. Do not try to pretend otherwise.


I will. If Clinton had won with 3 fewer popular points than Trump, I would have considered it equally stupid.

A system where the winner has fewer supporters than the loser is in my mind inherently flawed, especially if that system is bipartisan and other candidates are basically a non-issue. I already have some issues with the 2-rounds French system, because it means that only the top 2 candidates make it to the actual popularity vote - but at least it is a popularity vote.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 23rd, 2018, 5:23 am

Whatever man.

Frankly I think you have a bone to pick with the US anyway, so I'm not super interested in continuing.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » August 23rd, 2018, 5:51 am

Sinekein wrote:But why is it better to have 10 random states instead of the most popular areas of the country being the deciding forces?

All democracies in the world bar the USA have a system where the actual popular vote matters, and they overall work quite well. They are not favoring liberals over conservatives either - Germany works like that and Merkel (right-wing) has been in charge for more than 10 years, after 8 years or so of Schroeder (left-wing) who had succeeded Kohl (right-wing).

I also fail to see how it would be a tragedy if major cities had more weight to elect the president than minor ones. If they are major, it's because more people live there, ergo, they should be more influential. It's not about being liberal as much as it is about being fair. If the GOP was not becoming more extreme every day, it would stand a serious chance to woo voters outside of its traditional electorate, like successful middle-class black or latino people, which means improving its score in those "major cities".

Pretty sure a good portion of the USA would revolt if their votes means even less then they do now.

Not to mention it would make it easier for one party to keep making their people presidents.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 23rd, 2018, 11:04 am

Sinekein wrote:While I understand the reasoning behind the Electoral College, it also means that there is an inequality on voting power depending on where you live. But the biggest issue, to me, is that it turns presidential elections into a game a RISK.


This does/would happen anyway in the elaborate process of coalition building and is one reason I tend to roll my eyes at any arguments that boil down to demographics = destiny. For all there are broad swaths of the population that overwhelming vote one way or another and have for years (black people for Democrats, white evangelicals for Republicans, etc.) there are these pesky populations who shift in noteworthy ways during each election in just enough force to tip one candidate towards or against success and when that happens, the media tends to latch onto that demographic as being the magical make or break demographic for future elections. For Bush in both of his elections it was evangelicals. For Obama it was the youth vote and the Hispanic vote. For Trump it was the white working class vote.

This creates an elaborate industry of consultants and pollsters and campaign strategists who seek to identity the precise magical demographic coalition they need to win, where those people live, and how much time should be devoted to trying to reach them. Clinton's much lambasted decision to ignore the upper Midwest was just as much a product of assuming that "old white people are mostly irrelevant now" as it was that old union people would keep voting Democrat forever. The Democrat party is now in existential angst over trying to answer a question that boils down to "are young brown people or old white working class people a more essential part of a coalition needed to win?" Likewise, the Republican party was reduced to similar angst over whether courting Hispanics or rednecks was more essential after Romney lost.

Europe reserves the elaborate coalition building to something that happens *between* parties. Since we have only two meaningful ones, the process gets knocked down a level.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 23rd, 2018, 11:18 am

Sinekein wrote:A system where the winner has fewer supporters than the loser is in my mind inherently flawed, especially if that system is bipartisan and other candidates are basically a non-issue. I already have some issues with the 2-rounds French system, because it means that only the top 2 candidates make it to the actual popularity vote - but at least it is a popularity vote.


They actually have this system in Louisiana, leavings from the Napoleonic code. I actually liked it when I lived there. However, it's practical result there especially on the local level tends to be crazy Republican runs against moderate Republican and crazy Republican wins.

Trump is quite anomalous in one regard in that he didn't have to turn to center to win. But the vast bulk of the time, that's what our system forces a candidate to do to win: he has to rally enough of his base to win the primaries and then he also has to rally enough moderates to win the presidency. He has to thread this razor thin line between authenticity on specific issues and mass appeal. In most instances, it does curtail extremism and overt lunacy.

The problem is less with this system of itself and that we have reached a major, major cultural, social, and demographic crossroads and have been busily sorting ourselves geographically on that basis for about 30 years. No matter what kind of electoral system we have, it will continue to be chaotic until somebody wins this battle. It really is a culture war, even as much as that is used as a buzzword. If the electoral college was done away with, you would see even more efforts by conservatives to commandeer the courts for one thing and the entirety of the Republican congress would adopt the obstructionist policies of the Tea Party.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 25th, 2018, 6:05 pm

Not to mention it would make it easier for one party to keep making their people presidents.


I do not think so, because voters are always unpleasable. Even if the Democrat electorate grows faster than the Republican one, and it leads for a time to more Dems than Reps in power, it will mean that the Dems will get more time to make voters unhappy with their policies, and as such lose elections/part of their electorate.

Plus the growing number of successful immigrants/sons of immigrants in the country would be a logical target for the GOP, as soon as they start paying a significant amount of taxes and want more freedom of choice on a number of issues - especially as most migrants are, one way or another, tied to a religion. The problem is that at the moment, Trump is directly targeting several communities - black and Mexicans - and those insults are much harder to forget about than generic measures that happen to target you among other people - like tax increases or cuts.

If the electoral college was done away with, you would see even more efforts by conservatives to commandeer the courts for one thing and the entirety of the Republican congress would adopt the obstructionist policies of the Tea Party.


It already happened, didn't it? Gorsuch should not be seated in the Supreme Court without blatant obstruction from the conservatives against Obama's candidate, based on a completely flimsy and made-up "tradition" they dug up.

Trump is quite anomalous in one regard in that he didn't have to turn to center to win. But the vast bulk of the time, that's what our system forces a candidate to do to win: he has to rally enough of his base to win the primaries and then he also has to rally enough moderates to win the presidency. He has to thread this razor thin line between authenticity on specific issues and mass appeal. In most instances, it does curtail extremism and overt lunacy.


American politics have become more polarized since Obama was elected, Trump is more of a logical conclusion of the GOP's displacement towards its right than an outright anomaly. Obama's election emboldened the left and terrified the right, which reacted accordingly with the rise of the Tea Party and a gain of influence of hardline figures instead of moderate ones. And the "bold left" also led to the rise of candidates like Sanders which also displaced its party's center of gravity. Which means that in both cases, the "moderates" are further and further away from members of what should be their own electorate - and, ironically, closer and closer from the moderates of "the other side", but most of the time without the ability to exploit it due to how hard it is to win primaries on a moderate line.

The US are not unique in that regard: this is exactly what happened in France since 2007. The main difference is that French system allowed a centrist "outsider" (or posing at one, at any rate) to become a real contender and to win the election without the support of a big party. This is completely unthinkable within the frame of a bipartisan system, where for better or worse you have to be the candidate of the Dems or the GOP if you want to have a shot at any significant election. And nowadays you have too many political lines to fit under only two labels.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » August 25th, 2018, 11:59 pm

John McCain has died, as you do when you have aggressive brain cancer in your 80s and stop treatment.

It's been interesting to see the people tripping over themselves to praise his memory. Everyone of note in that sphere has to of course, but since I didn't like McCain, I'm looking at the praise with a more critical eye.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 26th, 2018, 5:36 am

He was far more interesting than most politicians at the very least. A bit of an anachronism recently.

There might be more fights about his legacy on the left than on the right, too.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 26th, 2018, 7:52 pm

Former Presidents Barack Obama and George W. Bush are giving the eulogy.

Trump has been banned from McCain's funeral.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 26th, 2018, 8:03 pm

Some would say "The President respected the wishes of the McCain family and didn't crash the funeral of a man he had a rocky relationship with."

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 26th, 2018, 9:40 pm

That's not actually it at all, but nice spin on it.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 26th, 2018, 10:05 pm

I'm fairly certain they couldn't "ban" the President of the United States from anywhere.

Like it or not, him not showing up is his choice.

But considering how petulant it is to turn someones funeral into your own personal talking point, I'm not surprised you believe what you do.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 26th, 2018, 10:51 pm

Like it or not, McCain did not want trump at the funeral.

Talk about petulant, you attack right away when I was just relaying the old man's wishes to here since no one else mentioned it.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 26th, 2018, 11:17 pm

Oh look, he missed the point again.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 26th, 2018, 11:28 pm

Your point was incredibly insipid.

I just relayed some additional facts. You made it into a personal attack. I didn't make it about me, I didn't insult trump, just relaying the facts.

You have a problem, Theo. Fix it.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 26th, 2018, 11:29 pm

Whatever makes you feel like God, pal.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 26th, 2018, 11:30 pm

Do you just sit there rapidly pressing F5 now or...?
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 26th, 2018, 11:34 pm

Do you?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 27th, 2018, 12:48 am

Trump managed to post his McCain eulogy right next to a picture of himself. Without writing a single positive thing about a man who spent several years in a hellish Vietnamese jail for his country.

I think it's safe to assume his absence at the funeral has little to do with respect. Political differences aside, McCain was a constant reminder that for all his tough talk and patriotic bravado, Trump is pretty much a draft dodger.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 27th, 2018, 12:53 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:Do you?


...No. I've ignored this place for a month. I'm not surprised you're still just the same.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 27th, 2018, 1:05 am

Ignore for a few more. Maybe things will change.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby DarkStorm » August 27th, 2018, 1:14 am

Probably not.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » August 27th, 2018, 1:17 am

Nah I think you'll still be a giant bitch, Theo.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 27th, 2018, 5:31 am

Sinekein wrote:Trump managed to post his McCain eulogy right next to a picture of himself. Without writing a single positive thing about a man who spent several years in a hellish Vietnamese jail for his country.

I think it's safe to assume his absence at the funeral has little to do with respect. Political differences aside, McCain was a constant reminder that for all his tough talk and patriotic bravado, Trump is pretty much a draft dodger.

If by "eulogy" you're referring to this instagram image: https://www.instagram.com/p/Bm7HFb3gMOc/?taken-by=realdonaldtrump then I am sorry but some things are out of whack.
1) If that counts as a Eulogy then millions of Facebook posts of "thoughts and prayers" also count. I don't think those count as eulogies, and nor does this one.

2) Even if it is a Eulogy it's a pretty weak one in general and has nothing negative as well as positive, it's generic if anything, like a "With Sympathy" card. Which are about as personal as a Birthday card or a Christmas card. It's the thought that counts.

3) Even this image's format isn't out of the pattern for Trump as if you look across the account he has "important thoughts of the day/week/whatever time" in the same format. Clearly there is a "I am putting this into the important things format because it's important". Regardless of why Trump feels it's important it's placed in the same stuff he wants his name and face to. In some small way he wants McCain's death to be remembered.

And that's just playing devil's advocate. I don't even like Trump and I can see that going on/being a point.

TBH I don't really care about draft dodging as TBH the Draft is still fucking stupid in terms of being a litmus test for if people are good or not.
There have probably been hundreds, if not thousands who have dodged the Draft over the subsequent wars the US have had since it was put in place and even if it's based on being pacifists or conscientious objectors they're all seen as bad people because they tried to escape being forced to fight and kill.
I mean to some the Draft in that case is tantamount to indentured servitude, which in itself is tantamount to slavery to them.

Not saying Trump was any of those people, just pointing out how "draft dodger" is a pretty shit insult.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » August 27th, 2018, 6:15 am

I wonder how much outpouring of love for John McCain we would be seeing if him and Trump hadn't so vehemently disagree with one another.

Up until maybe a year ago I feel like he was basically a footnote at best to most people, and a despised at worst.

While I have no doubt that the man was beloved by those who knew him, what we are seeing all seems very fake to me.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » August 27th, 2018, 7:27 am

TheodoricFriede wrote:While I have no doubt that the man was beloved by those who knew him, what we are seeing all seems very fake to me.

stuff like that happens a lot when people die.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 27th, 2018, 2:20 pm

Sinekein wrote:I do not think so, because voters are always unpleasable. Even if the Democrat electorate grows faster than the Republican one, and it leads for a time to more Dems than Reps in power, it will mean that the Dems will get more time to make voters unhappy with their policies, and as such lose elections/part of their electorate.


Qualification: It would make it easier for Democrats to get their party into nation wide offices for the near future. (I was basically just pointing out that that's why the Democrats are so gung-ho about getting rid of the electoral college - because Democrats have won the popular vote for the last 4 out of 5 elections. Never-mind that it was never by a particularly wide margin or our overall abysmal voter turnout levels and thus no true "majority" argument can be extrapolated from it. They don't want reform out of any true appeal to majority rule or the health of the republic. They smell strategic advantage).

It already happened, didn't it? Gorsuch should not be seated in the Supreme Court without blatant obstruction from the conservatives against Obama's candidate, based on a completely flimsy and made-up "tradition" they dug up.


Sure, I'm saying it would get worse. There is a limit to how far the left can bludgeon the right into capitulation on certain cultural issues; whether the attempted capitulation comes because of activist liberal courts or through congressional majorities is beside the point. A huge group of Christians simply *will not* accept homosexuality as one example, and they will resist any and all measures that attempt to compel that social acceptance and removal of stigma. There can be negotiated allowances for them. There can be a non trivial possibility that they can exercise some voting power through assorted non-majoritarian apparatuses such as the electoral college. Or there can be unending, entrenched resistance by their attempt to seize courts and otherwise practice the guerrilla tactics of the underdog. But they will not go away. I think the first of those three is by far the most preferable for this particular example, but the plausibility of the modern left doing that is next to nothing so the second thing seems like the best that can be hoped for.

There are equally intractable issues on the left that would compel them to use the same tactics if push came to shove. (In fact, they've *tried* recently, albeit ineffectually, over DACA and ostensible threats to abortion rights).

American politics have become more polarized since Obama was elected, Trump is more of a logical conclusion of the GOP's displacement towards its right than an outright anomaly. Obama's election emboldened the left and terrified the right, which reacted accordingly with the rise of the Tea Party and a gain of influence of hardline figures instead of moderate ones. And the "bold left" also led to the rise of candidates like Sanders which also displaced its party's center of gravity. Which means that in both cases, the "moderates" are further and further away from members of what should be their own electorate - and, ironically, closer and closer from the moderates of "the other side", but most of the time without the ability to exploit it due to how hard it is to win primaries on a moderate line.


The polarization precedes Obama by a huge number of years and has its roots in things that go back to at least the 1960s. I could write a big description, but in the interests of no novels, I'll refrain. Sure, it's gotten steadily worse over time, but Obama's presidency is noteworthy mostly because it's the moment when the polarization really started to burst its seams and the dysfunction became pronounced enough that it started to overwhelm the ability of the American political system to cope. If anything it's a testament to the system that it managed to weather the severe societal dysfunction of the Vietnam Era, the huge crime surge of the 80s and early 90s, and all the drama of the Cold War.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 27th, 2018, 2:30 pm

2) Even if it is a Eulogy it's a pretty weak one in general and has nothing negative as well as positive, it's generic if anything, like a "With Sympathy" card. Which are about as personal as a Birthday card or a Christmas card. It's the thought that counts.


Yeah but it's not that hard to find something positive to say about an actual war hero. He even managed to give a compliment for Aretha Franklin who was not exactly one of her supporters.

Not saying Trump was any of those people, just pointing out how "draft dodger" is a pretty shit insult.


It is not meant as an insult as much as a way to point out his hypocrisy. There have been many people who dodged the draft - but most of these people refrained from insulting someone who was tortured in Vietnam because "I prefer people who don't get captured".

I wonder how much outpouring of love for John McCain we would be seeing if him and Trump hadn't so vehemently disagree with one another.


I don't think it is about the outpouring of love: a war hero like McCain was bound to get some superlative eulogies. So the content might not have changed much, but it would have been less publicized because McCain's career recently was built by opposing Trump.

Which to be fair at the moment is one of the two ways to exist in the medias - either that or sucking him up. DJT is a media juggernaut and it is really hard to exist independently of his existence - especially for members of the GOP.

The polarization precedes Obama by a huge number of years and has its roots in things that go back to at least the 1960s. I could write a big description, but in the interests of no novels, I'll refrain. Sure, it's gotten steadily worse over time, but Obama's presidency is noteworthy mostly because it's the moment when the polarization really started to burst its seams and the dysfunction became pronounced enough that it started to overwhelm the ability of the American political system to cope. If anything it's a testament to the system that it managed to weather the severe societal dysfunction of the Vietnam Era, the huge crime surge of the 80s and early 90s, and all the drama of the Cold War.


True, I remember reading an article citing Nixon as the architect of the current state of American politics with the way he changed the Republican electorate (and by extension, the Democratic one).

And the examples you mention tend to point out to a system made to work while there is a "common enemy", whether it is Soviet Russia, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. The dysfunctions so far always were built in relation to the existence of some kind of outside threat, which now has pretty much disappeared - ISIS being the main turning point because it was more of an ideology than a country.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 27th, 2018, 2:59 pm

Sinekein wrote:True, I remember reading an article citing Nixon as the architect of the current state of American politics with the way he changed the Republican electorate (and by extension, the Democratic one).

And the examples you mention tend to point out to a system made to work while there is a "common enemy", whether it is Soviet Russia, Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan. The dysfunctions so far always were built in relation to the existence of some kind of outside threat, which now has pretty much disappeared - ISIS being the main turning point because it was more of an ideology than a country.


Yea, the notorious "Southern Strategy." There is some substance there, but the way it's sometimes presented as this singular explanation for the modern GOP masterminded by evil Nixon having backdoor meetings with Klansman level racists or whatever is...insufficient to say the least.

And I have to disagree pretty heartily on the idea that our system was specifically set up to function only against a "common enemy." Our most severe dysfunction has always been a result of internal cultural problems. In fact an ostensible "common enemy," far from unifying us, usually divides us even more. The domestic dysfunction that coincided with Vietnam or Iraq was never really about Vietnam and Iraq but about who *we* are. Are we the kind of country that exports freedom even if it means My Lai or aren't we? The only real "common enemy" we ever had was Nazi Germany, but they were so laughably aggressively expansionist and evilly racist that I'm not even sure if that counts. Uniting to oppose a Mongol invasion is just good sense. It doesn't really mean much of anything of itself.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 27th, 2018, 2:59 pm

I'm not Catholic so I really have no dog in this race, but the whole "lavender mafia" angle that the press is tiptoeing around is really interesting.

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... uncovered/

It completely reframes the whole sexual abuse scandal.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 27th, 2018, 3:30 pm

Sinekein wrote:Yeah but it's not that hard to find something positive to say about an actual war hero. He even managed to give a compliment for Aretha Franklin who was not exactly one of her supporters.

Unless he was a political rival and any comment made could show support to another party that is not your own and could sow weakness rumblings in your own camp.
Even in death politics still counts.

And even then it's a case of if you can't say anything nice it's best to say nothing at all, or as close to it by being bland and generic.

Sinekein wrote:It is not meant as an insult as much as a way to point out his hypocrisy. There have been many people who dodged the draft - but most of these people refrained from insulting someone who was tortured in Vietnam because "I prefer people who don't get captured".


Hypocrisy only really matters if people give a shit about it.
I mean at most all I can see is him saying he prefers martyrs or heroes that can't rally support against him. Or he doesn't like living heroes.
Just being in the military doesn't make on a hero if it's done via the draft as there is no choice in the matter at that point. I am certain if John McCain had the option he'd have preferred to not have been roped into a war where he would have been in the situation to have been captured and tortured rather than having to go through it. I would have if it were me.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 27th, 2018, 4:23 pm

And I have to disagree pretty heartily on the idea that our system was specifically set up to function only against a "common enemy." Our most severe dysfunction has always been a result of internal cultural problems. In fact an ostensible "common enemy," far from unifying us, usually divides us even more. The domestic dysfunction that coincided with Vietnam or Iraq was never really about Vietnam and Iraq but about who *we* are.


Vietnam caused a fracture first (mostly because the country's youth was being sent to war), but then something akin to a consensus on "this war really sucks" emerged, instead of creating a wider and wider rift. Similar dynamics emerged in Iraq (the second time around) or Afghanistan.

There always was Soviet Russia as the big rival that was fought directly or indirectly. Then the 90's were the decade of "America won the Cold War", followed by "America vs Islamic Terrorism". But ISIS was not that great an enemy to band against, first because it was never a real, functional country to begin with, and second because the USA were just "one of their enemies".

At the moment, the USA should have no real reason to worry about geopolitical threats. I do not think it is a coincidence it is the moment where those deep-seated issues within American society emerged for all to see. There is no "villain" anymore, because neither Russia nor China are acting within the US sphere of influence, or directly threatening American interests, or challenging the US position as the most powerful country on the planet. China is expanding its influence like most neocolonial powers do, by buying and investing instead of outright attacking - and while it makes it a rival to the US, it is playing by the rules, at least in the sense of current society.

Just being in the military doesn't make on a hero if it's done via the draft as there is no choice in the matter at that point. I am certain if John McCain had the option he'd have preferred to not have been roped into a war where he would have been in the situation to have been captured and tortured rather than having to go through it. I would have if it were me.


McCain was career military, he chose to fight for his country in Vietnam, there was no draft issue - he was a pilot, which I don't think drafted youngsters could become.

Unless he was a political rival and any comment made could show support to another party that is not your own and could sow weakness rumblings in your own camp.
Even in death politics still counts.


Trump and McCain were GOP. It's not like he was praising a member of the Democratic Party.

I'm not Catholic so I really have no dog in this race, but the whole "lavender mafia" angle that the press is tiptoeing around is really interesting


It is the latest occurrence of the huge infighting between reformists and conservatives within the Catholic Church - and "lavender mafia" is a term used exclusively by the archconservative aisle, the equivalent of "Deep State" in regular politics. The SSPX that supposedly asked Benedikt for reforms is the Society of Saint Pius X, whose founder, among other things, got excommunicated, supported Franco's or Salazar's regimes (and had nice things to say about Pinochet's), and was a support of the National Front in France - when it was led by Jean-Marie "gas chambers are but a detail of history" Le Pen. So, not exactly your average, run-of-the-mill catholics - although they get points for consistency as Richard Williamson, a prominent negationnist, was part of the order.

What I read is that the timing of this "scandal" is not random, as it happens right when Pope Francis is in the middle of a series of travels where he wants to apologize for past behavior of the Church, including in countries like Ireland that conservatives see as "slipping away" from Catholic influence.

But Francis, purposefully or not, overshadowed that case anyway by linking homosexuality with psychiatric issues, which removed the McCarrick case from the front pages.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 27th, 2018, 4:52 pm

Sinekein wrote:McCain was career military, he chose to fight for his country in Vietnam, there was no draft issue - he was a pilot, which I don't think drafted youngsters could become.

While true the lens of who is a hero or not falls over Trump as he's the one who's saying he prefers dead heroes or non-captured ones. The implication then becomes "well you dodged the draft so you're just jaded you missed out on being a hero and how dare you call McCain anything other than a hero because you didn't fight when he did".

I don't know either BUT I would say that maybe the USA could look into the draftee's careers and if they see flight experience they're sent to the Air Force?

Sinekein wrote:Trump and McCain were GOP. It's not like he was praising a member of the Democratic Party.


You do realize that you can still have rivalries within the same party and influence still counts in said party, right?
If McCain wasn't popular in the party a show of praise from Trump can either turn those enemies to support for McCain or they can also become enemies of Trump's. Seeing as McCain is dead the likelihood of them becoming enemies is a little higher. So it's best to be non-committal.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 27th, 2018, 6:23 pm

Sinekein wrote:Vietnam caused a fracture first (mostly because the country's youth was being sent to war), but then something akin to a consensus on "this war really sucks" emerged, instead of creating a wider and wider rift. Similar dynamics emerged in Iraq (the second time around) or Afghanistan.

There always was Soviet Russia as the big rival that was fought directly or indirectly. Then the 90's were the decade of "America won the Cold War", followed by "America vs Islamic Terrorism". But ISIS was not that great an enemy to band against, first because it was never a real, functional country to begin with, and second because the USA were just "one of their enemies".


The initial catalyst in the upheaval of that era was the Civil Rights Movement. Also contemporary was second wave feminism. (For a point of reference, The Feminine Mystique was published in 1963. The Stonewall Riots were also 1969). Don't get me wrong. Vietnam mattered, but it was not a singular catalyst.

There is no "villain" anymore


The issue, inasmuch as it's possible to narrow it down to one issue, is neoliberal/conservative style globalization. That's what we're reeling from with a good dosage of issues that have plagued us for 200 years and boil to the surface again and again in times of particular cultural or economic discontent.

It is the latest occurrence of the huge infighting between reformists and conservatives within the Catholic Church - and "lavender mafia" is a term used exclusively by the archconservative aisle, the equivalent of "Deep State" in regular politics.


That would have been my take as well before I started reading the blog of that guy I posted. But it's just too well documented. (And the fact that descriptions given by insiders pretty much exactly match descriptions of the "cruising" aspect of gay culture in such books as And the Band Played On) And there's needling inconvenient truths as well like the fact that the vast, vast bulk of the abuse victims are male and the vast, vast bulk of them are post-pubescent, meaning they've started demonstrating sexual characteristics of adult men. That and that thanks probably in some degree to #MeToo a lot of stories of sexual harassment of adult male seminarians is also coming out.

(That's not a denunciation of homosexuality or a claim that pedophilia = homosexuality). It's more like, yes, you can't understand the scandal without talking about sexual secrecy and celibacy and clerical authority, but you also can't understand the scandal without acknowledging the reality of there being lots of sexually active gay priests specifically.

Like I said, however the fruit falls here I don't have a stake in it. It's more interesting from a sociological perspective I guess.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 27th, 2018, 6:23 pm

*double post ignore*

I don't know that happens to me so much.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » August 28th, 2018, 12:47 am

I'm just going to take a moment to say that people *Should* have positive things to say about Pinochet.

Anyone who physically removes communists in such a meme worthy manner is worthy of respect.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 28th, 2018, 1:28 am

Anyone who physically removes communists in such a meme worthy manner is worthy of respect.


Salvador Allende was not a communist, he founded the Socialist Party of Chile. He had some political alliances with the Communist party, but was not a part of it.

I also fail to see what is meme worthy in Chile. It's kind of like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the comedy of mass murder totally eludes me for some reason.

That's not a denunciation of homosexuality or a claim that pedophilia = homosexuality). It's more like, yes, you can't understand the scandal without talking about sexual secrecy and celibacy and clerical authority, but you also can't understand the scandal without acknowledging the reality of there being lots of sexually active gay priests specifically.


I do not think those last two statements are independent. Homosexuality among priests is impossible to separate from the fact that, in a manner similar to prisoners, they have next to no social interaction with women due to sexual secrecy and celibacy. From their seminar onwards, the only adult people they significantly interact with are men. It is not the only religion where priests have to be male, but it is the only religion where sex is also forbidden, which is kind of a big factor.

Also, this particular blog and its traditionalist political line would be more likely to link paedophilia and homosexuality, than it would be to question whether priest celibacy should go (or if female priests should be authorized). Hence why I would personally not trust this blog - "lavender mafia" is about as objective a phrasing as "libtard" is in general politics.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Grand Admiral Cheesecake » August 28th, 2018, 10:20 am

Sinekein wrote:
Anyone who physically removes communists in such a meme worthy manner is worthy of respect.


Salvador Allende was not a communist, he founded the Socialist Party of Chile. He had some political alliances with the Communist party, but was not a part of it.

I also fail to see what is meme worthy in Chile. It's kind of like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, the comedy of mass murder totally eludes me for some reason.

Not at all comparable.

Millions of people died in Cambodia. A few hundred to the low thousands at most died in Chile.

Pinochet was physically removing a problem. The Commies in Cambodia were idiots who killed a significant portion of their own country because their ideology doesn't work.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 28th, 2018, 10:22 am

Sinekein wrote:I do not think those last two statements are independent. Homosexuality among priests is impossible to separate from the fact that, in a manner similar to prisoners, they have next to no social interaction with women due to sexual secrecy and celibacy. From their seminar onwards, the only adult people they significantly interact with are men. It is not the only religion where priests have to be male, but it is the only religion where sex is also forbidden, which is kind of a big factor.

Also, this particular blog and its traditionalist political line would be more likely to link paedophilia and homosexuality, than it would be to question whether priest celibacy should go (or if female priests should be authorized). Hence why I would personally not trust this blog - "lavender mafia" is about as objective a phrasing as "libtard" is in general politics.


There's various monastic orders that have vows of celibacy in Eastern religions, but frankly I know absolutely nothing about the occurrence of homosexuality or lack thereof in those orders. It also raises the question of the difference, if any, between monastic orders in Roman Catholicism that keep to themselves and the priesthood that engages in administration and ministry. Most of the controversy has centered in the ministerial part of the priesthood specifically, but that could just be lack of investigation into monastic orders.

That particular blog actually goes out of its way to maintain the crisis *isn't* chiefly about pedophilia. And yea, TAC is conservative, but it's alignment is roughly center right somewhere along say The Wall Street Journal but with more of an emphasis in some kind of vague communatarianism. It's hardly Breitbart or InfoWars. The guy who writes that blog is a conservative Greek Orthodox Christian, but he covered the original scandal in 2002 to such an extent that he left Catholicism over it for Orthodoxy. He's courted a huge network of insider sources and quotes from them constantly. He apparently knew about McCarrick in 2002 and knew that the hierarchy knew, but could not go forward because he had no source willing to go on record about it.

So, yea, his diagnosis of the problem isn't complete and his prescription for a solution isn't good, but I've seen nothing to suggest that his claims that "there is a large network of sexually active gay priests, some liberal, some conservative, present at all levels from the seminary to the Vatican, who sexually harass and 'recruit' young priests, keep each other in line of secrecy by an elaborate system of blackmail, patronage, and other manipulation, and some of whom internally lobby for a liberalization of the church's stance on homosexuality" is *false.*

Meanwhile, ostensibly similar conspiracy constructs like the "Deep State" or "QAnon" can be dismantled in like five minutes of googling.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 28th, 2018, 10:38 am

Currently the best person the left has to offer that I'm aware of: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... sm/568573/

Explicitly anti-socialist and with less focus on identity politics. I would vote for her if she ran against Trump.

Only fallback is she is almost as old as Trump and though that doesn't screw with her effectiveness necessarily, if we keep electing nothing but these 70+ people, it's only a matter of time before one of them dies in office. She would need a bangup vice presidential candidate as well.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » August 28th, 2018, 11:24 am

Pinochet was physically removing a problem.


Pinochet killed or tortured all of his opponents, not members of the communist party only. The main difference with the Khmer Rouge is that they might have given people a chance to flee before their trip to jail.

There's various monastic orders that have vows of celibacy in Eastern religions, but frankly I know absolutely nothing about the occurrence of homosexuality or lack thereof in those orders. It also raises the question of the difference, if any, between monastic orders in Roman Catholicism that keep to themselves and the priesthood that engages in administration and ministry. Most of the controversy has centered in the ministerial part of the priesthood specifically, but that could just be lack of investigation into monastic orders.


Even if there is homosexuality among their ranks, they are secretive and isolationnist by nature, so even if you are a hardline traditionalist it is difficult to conflate the influence of a supposed "gay lobby" among people who mostly keep to themselves and do not interact much with the rest of the world. The main controversy is about paedophilia, because most ministers are/have been educators, so they were given the responsibility of being with numerous children, and they DID interact with the rest of the world - that's the whole point of their priesthood actually.


So, yea, his diagnosis of the problem isn't complete and his prescription for a solution isn't good, but I've seen nothing to suggest that his claims that "there is a large network of sexually active gay priests, some liberal, some conservative, present at all levels from the seminary to the Vatican, who sexually harass and 'recruit' young priests, keep each other in line of secrecy by an elaborate system of blackmail, patronage, and other manipulation, and some of whom internally lobby for a liberalization of the church's stance on homosexuality" is *false.*


It is honestly hard to prove or disprove much when it comes to the Catholic Church because it has always been intensely secretive.

There are priests - celibate ones - who support a soft stance on homosexuality. Not because they are secretly gay, but because they just see the world evolving, and because like basically everything, it boils down to an interpretation of sacred texts, not the letter of those texts (which is often used to justify condemnation of homosexuality - while ignoring other stupid statements taken straight from the Bible). What I see this blog doing is turning a societal question - "How does the Catholic Church should relate to homosexuality?" into a matter of abusers and conspirators pushing an agenda. Which suddenly aligns "supporting gay rights" and "abuse".

So even without equating it with paedophilia, it's still pushing a rather dirty agenda IMO. Especially since the CC's stance on "family values" (so celibacy and homosexuality) has been at the root of a lot of human misery.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » August 28th, 2018, 11:39 am

Since the Catholic Church isn't a state, it's internal stance on homosexuality is more a cultural thing than something to do with "gay rights" in a legal sense except in areas where it brushes up with explicit legally defined rights - say hiring at Catholic hospitals in areas that forbid discrimination based on sexual orientation or when it bumps up against adoption laws.

To that end, the answer to the question "How should the Catholic Church relate to homosexuality?" is "With consistency and without hypocrisy" which is what is their current problem. The thing is there are two ways to to do that: "embrace it" or "zero tolerance."

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » August 28th, 2018, 3:15 pm

Raga wrote:Since the Catholic Church isn't a state,

Well, I dunno, if pushed the Vatican City might be ale to call itself The Catholic State in non-literal name as they're also the seat of God and the Catholic Church and are an internationally recognized nation state.


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