Films and TV (Untagged spoilers)

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[TheodoricFriede]

She defeates Luke fucking Skywalker in combat.

Ok... I know this was a while ago but...

Are you referring to the time where Luke Skywalker makes a fool of her and is able to completely disarm and beat her with nothing but a stick while being completely separated from the force, and she only wins when she pulls out a lightsaber?

Because im pretty sure I could beat Luke Slywalker in a fight if he had nothing but a stick and wasn't using the force, and I had a lightsaber.

[Alienmorph]

I'll admit, there are some... in-universe justifications for why she wins. But at the end of the day the symbolism of the whole thing is what leaves a terrible after taste. At the end of the day, that confrontation ends with Luke old, sad and laying on the ground, while Rey stands triumphantly in front of him, wielding his father's sword to add insult to injury.

And it's not like she's ever punished or has to face any kind of backlash for cheating and pulling out the 'saber in the middle of the fight either.

[Azint]

Like when Rey tried to face Snoke and Kylo Ren on her own and was thrown around like a rag doll, and the only way she was able to survive her encounter was because Kylo Ren saved her?

[Alienmorph]

That doesn't really have much to do with what happens with Luke on Ahch-To.

She wins the fight with Luke in an unfair way, the movie treats it like she's completely right for turning on him and like it's more Rey that's teaching Luke and not the other way around, and she doesn't even pick up any skill that she wasn't already learning on her own, like Force Pulling and lightsaber combat.

And while getting metaphorically bitchslapped by Snoke IS one of the very few times someone tries to bring her down a notch, even that accomplishes diddly-dick as Kylo was very obviously on her side the moment she entered the room, and there was not much of a real danger for her going on. And it's not like bad karma because of her actions on Ahch-To anyway.

[TheodoricFriede]

At the end of the day, that confrontation ends with Luke old, sad and laying on the ground, while Rey stands triumphantly in front of him, wielding his father's sword to add insult to injury.

Thats the point. Luke at that point is an old, broken man. He cut himself off completely from the force. Thats the equivalent of Jesus cutting himself off from God.

Thats why its such a big deal that he was able to beat Kylo Ren with nothing but a force projection. Its why its such a big deal that he disappears at the end of that movie. Thats not just "The writers wanted to write Luke out." He is, for all intents and purposes, a prophet ascending to heaven.

He has become whole again.


Thats why it baffles me that people (or more accurately, Star Wars fans) hate that movie. It depicts the force as described by Yoda described it. i dont even LIKE Star Wars that much and I can still see that.

[TheodoricFriede]

She wins the fight with Luke in an unfair way, the movie treats it like she's completely right for turning on him and like it's more Rey that's teaching Luke and not the other way around, and she doesn't even pick up any skill that she wasn't already learning on her own, like Force Pulling and lightsaber combat.

Ok, it wasn't a "dual". There were no rules. She attacked him and he defended himself. He very thoroughly was trouncing her until she pulled out a lightsaber. Furthermore, she learned the spiritual aspects of the force. She was already a skilled combatant on her own. Luke deepened her connection and understanding of the force.

Also I'd say that being partially responsible for putting Kylo Ren in charge of the First Order is a pretty good bit of karmic retribution.

[Alienmorph]

Thats why its such a big deal that he was able to beat Kylo Ren with nothing but a force projection. Its why its such a big deal that he disappears at the end of that movie. Thats not just "The writers wanted to write Luke out." He is, for all intents and purposes, a prophet ascending to heaven.

He has become whole again.


Thats why it baffles me that people (or more accurately, Star Wars fans) hate that movie. It depicts the force as described by Yoda described it. i dont even LIKE Star Wars that much and I can still see that.

The problem is the reason he disgraced himself to begin with. He's the guy who redeemed the second most evil (and likeky the most powerful) Dark Side force-user in the known universe... and then he ruins everything by almost killing his NEPHEW. In his sleep. Because there was a chance he could also fall to the Dark Side. A chance.

There could have been a thousand better ways to make Luke fall from grace, but they had to go for a way that contradicts the core character of Luke and everything he believed and fought for... and then gave his old "There's still good in him, he can be redeemed!" to Rey, the person that got involved into the Skywalker family business 3-4 days prior.

Ok, it wasn't a "dual". There were no rules. She attacked him and he defended himself. He very thoroughly was trouncing her until she pulled out a lightsaber.

Fair enough, like I said it's more the symbolic elements in that scene that bother me. You do have point in regards of the fight itself, tho.

Furthermore, she learned the spiritual aspects of the force. She was already a skilled combatant on her own. Luke deepened her connection and understanding of the force.

Also I'd say that being partially responsible for putting Kylo Ren in charge of the First Order is a pretty good bit of karmic retribution.

So she learns more about the Force and becomes amazing. In a day or so. After one lesson of training. That's all it took for her to be as skilled as Kylo Ren, and as powerful as a Jedi Master, as opposed to everything Anakin, Luke and any other Jedi or wannabee one in the whole series had to go through for years each. And before you say anything about the little time Luke spends with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, I'd have to remind you Luke straight up loses against Vader in that movie. Pretty badly too.

And I can almost guarantee you that in the sequel thei're gonna go "Kylo was already lost, and just waiting for his chance to take over, it would have happened sooner or later" and free her from the what little guilt she may have felt for unwantingly helping him.

[TheodoricFriede]

There could have been a thousand better ways to make Luke fall from grace, but they had to go for a way that contradicts the core character of Luke and everything he believed and fought for... and then gave his old "There's still good in him, he can be redeemed!" to Rey, the person that got involved into the Skywalker family business 3-4 days prior.



So she learns more about the Force and becomes amazing. In a day or so. After one lesson of training. That's all it took for her to be as skilled as Kylo Ren, and as powerful as a Jedi Master, as opposed to everything Anakin, Luke and any other Jedi or wannabee one in the whole series had to go through for years each. And before you say anything about the little time Luke spends with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back, I'd have to remind you Luke straight up loses against Vader in that movie. Pretty badly too.

And I can almost guarantee you that in the sequel thei're gonna go "Kylo was already lost, and just waiting for his chance to take over, it would have happened sooner or later" and free her from the what little guilt she may have felt for unwantingly helping him.

If you got a premonition from God saying your nephew was going to be the next Hitler and there was nothing you could do to stop it, you wouldn't, at least briefly, contemplate killing him too? Also I dont think Luke ever does believe Kylo can Be redeemed. Hence my favorite exchange in the entire movie, "Are you here to 'save' me?" "No."


Why on earth does anyone believe that Kylo is a "jedi master". He is essentially a Jr High dropout that a much more powerful Sith lord (who threw Rey around like a ragdoll) is using. Furthermore Anakin could build droids and fly spaceships when he was 5. Luke could too, but he was discouraged to do so by his caretakers. Luke was able to learn to fly an X-wing better then the top pilots in the rebellion and Darth Vader in, what, a few weeks? He was able to use the force to angle a shot into a target that extremely advanced targeting systems couldn't hit. That is equally as unlikely as anything Rey has done.

Luke vs Vader was a fledgling vs a Master. Rey vs Kylo is fledgling vs a fledgling.

And again I say. Even Luke said Kylo was already lost. It was Rey that thought she could 'save' him.

[Alienmorph]

If you got a premonition from God saying your nephew was going to be the next Hitler and there was nothing you could do to stop it, you wouldn't, at least briefly, contemplate killing him too? Also I dont think Luke ever does believe Kylo can Be redeemed. Hence my favorite exchange in the entire movie, "Are you here to 'save' me?" "No."

Why on earth does anyone believe that Kylo is a "jedi master". He is essentially a Jr High dropout that a much more powerful Sith lord (who threw Rey around like a ragdoll) is using. Furthermore Anakin could build droids and fly spaceships when he was 5. Luke could too, but he was discouraged to do so by his caretakers. Luke was able to learn to fly an X-wing better then the top pilots in the rebellion and Darth Vader in, what, a few weeks? He was able to use the force to angle a shot into a target that extremely advanced targeting systems couldn't hit. That is equally as unlikely as anything Rey has done.

Luke vs Vader was a fledgling vs a Master. Rey vs Kylo is fledgling vs a fledgling.

And again I say. Even Luke said Kylo was already lost. It was Rey that thought she could 'save' him.

We don't know how much far gone Ben/Kylo already was at that point, so not sure how much your argument applies. And again... the man who redeemed the person that was believed by an whole galaxy to be unredeemable. Had Luke been a normal bloke you'd have more ground to stand on, but given Luke's past history...

Fair enough again, he's not a "master", but he's got years of training, both in the light and dark side of the force. Yet Rey becomes as good and skilled as him in a matter of days, and the only explanation is "because the force is balacing Kylo's evil out". Which is not like it ever worked before. And they have to be better than the average padawan/trainee, considering how easily they wreck Snoke's pretorian guard.

And I do kind of both like and dislike that by the end of the movie Kylo is deemed beyond salvation. On one hand it means we're not getting just a rethread of Vader's storyarc in the next movie (or at least it's less likely), on the other, the character who had some interesting inner conflict going on now is likely just going to become a generic Disney villain. Literally.

[TheodoricFriede]

We don't know how much far gone Ben/Kylo already was at that point, so not sure how much your argument applies. And again... the man who redeemed the person that was believed by an whole galaxy to be unredeemable. Had Luke been a normal bloke you'd have more ground to stand on, but given Luke's past history...

Fair enough again, he's not a "master", but he's got years of training, both in the light and dark side of the force. Yet Rey becomes as good and skilled as him in a matter of days, and the only explanation is "because the force is balacing Kylo's evil out". Which is not like it ever worked before. And they have to be better than the average padawan/trainee, considering how easily they wreck Snoke's pretorian guard.

And I do kind of both like and dislike that by the end of the movie Kylo is deemed beyond salvation. On one hand it means we're not getting just a rethread of Vader's storyarc in the next movie (or at least it's less likely), on the other, the character who had some interesting inner conflict going on now is likely just going to become a generic Disney villain. Literally.

Luke's entire philosophy about the force is different from any Jedi we have seen. He is a grey jedi. He believes in the balance of light and dark. Even in the first movies he tapped into both sides. Further, have you also considered that the fact that the darkness Luke felt in Kylo ran so deep that it scared him more then Darth Vader ever did? Did Luke try to redeem the Emperor? No, he tried to redeem a man he felt could be redeemed.

Rey grew up on a hostile planet fighting for her life since she was a toddler. She was fighting a man who was not only a not a master, not only seen as a tool, not only full of conflict, but also took a BOWCASTER SHOT TO THE STOMACH. Do you remember what it looked like when other people got hit with a bowcaster? You think that Kylo may have been at a tiny disadvantage?

[Alienmorph]

Luke's entire philosophy about the force is different from any Jedi we have seen. He is a grey jedi. He believes in the balance of light and dark. Even in the first movies he tapped into both sides. Further, have you also considered that the fact that the darkness Luke felt in Kylo ran so deep that it scared him more then Darth Vader ever did? Did Luke try to redeem the Emperor? No, he tried to redeem a man he felt could be redeemed.

Rey grew up on a hostile planet fighting for her life since she was a toddler. She was fighting a man who was not only a not a master, not only seen as a tool, not only full of conflict, but also took a BOWCASTER SHOT TO THE STOMACH. Do you remember what it looked like when other people got hit with a bowcaster? You think that Kylo may have been at a tiny disadvantage?

Well, then the third movie will better show Kylo doing something really REALLY messed up then, because all I've seen so far of Kylo is an angry kid who wants desperately to be like his cool grandpa. Nothing points out he's some kind of Antichrist that couldn't have been nurtured into a better person than he ended up being.

If you refer to Force Awakens, yes, Kylo was definately in a disadvantage. Again tho... watch the fight scene in Last Jedi in Snoke's throne room instead, and it looks pretty clear thei're evenly matched. And Rey is fighting with a weapon she picked up a few days earlier, and it's nothing like her old beating stick. Learning how to fight with a spear wouldn't make you instantly good at fighting with a katana.

[Alienmorph]

Aaaaand Guardians of the Galaxy Vol3 has been put on hiatus indefinetely.

Thanks a fucking bunch Disney.

[TheodoricFriede]

Aaaaand Guardians of the Galaxy Vol3 has been put on hiatus indefinetely.

Thanks a fucking bunch Disney.

They have only themselves to blame.

i imagine there was a good chunk of "Look, just release me from my contract, because I have no intention of giving it my all" from the cast. Batista was the most vocal, but I dont think anyone was happy.

Disney can take almost any monetary hit, but given the reception to the Han Solo solo film and essentially losing Guardians of the Galaxy, I imagine there are a lot of people with suits and charts not happy right now.

[Alienmorph]

Indeed. Won't be surprised if they make some last minute reshoots for Avengers 4 and just make sure most of the Guardians stay dead, at this point. If Drax doesn't get randomly killed in that movie now, I'm going to be really surprised.

[Sinekein]

Silver lining is that Zoe Saldana had already been announced for GotG 3, which means that Gamora might not be resurrected in Avengers 4. With the consequence that her death scene (most emotional moment in the movie IMO) will not be retconned by some cosmic handwave or fingersnap.

Unlike everyone else's.

[Alienmorph]

Assuming she doesn't just show up in some flashback, or in some hallucination Star-Lord has in a moment of distress...

[TheodoricFriede]

They'll be back. Don't fool yourself.

Disney was stupid enough to fire Gunn and piss off the cast, they aren't so stupid as to eliminate the Guardians of the Galaxy all-together.

If they do, then there is more going on behind the scenes then we think.

[Alienmorph]

Hope you're right. Worst case scenario they can keep around Rocket and Groot, since thei're mo-capped and all you need are a couple voice actors that sound like Cooper and Diesel, and have them pop up in other movies, if GotG gets canned. And that might happen even if we do get a third Guardians movie. But right now I'm not sure what's going to happen.

[Sinekein]

In any event, they'll need to find a new director first. I get the feeling Guardians could be an aggressively bad movie with the wrong person in charge - while most other MCU franchises would be mediocre at worst if handled by some rando. Trying to do a Gunn movie without being Gunn is a recipe for two hours of lame jokes, bad dialogue, facepalm-worthy comedic timing, an overexposed soundtrack to hide the misery, and an overall distasteful result.

[Alienmorph]

Yup. Many people seem to be wanting the director of Thor Ragnarok to make Guardians 3. Which would be... ok... but that guy couldn't stop making jokes even when the titular Ragnarok was happening. He would not be my first choice.

[TheodoricFriede]

Yup. Many people seem to be wanting the director of Thor Ragnarok to make Guardians 3. Which would be... ok... but that guy couldn't stop making jokes even when the titular Ragnarok was happening. He would not be my first choice.

I'd rather they didn't make the movie at all.

The reason those movies were so good is that they weren't written by a committee, they were written by James Gunn.

If you want an example, just look at the soundtrack. Every song in Guardians of the Galaxy is perfectly handcrafted to be wonderfully appropriately inappropriate.

Thor Ragnarok is just trying to mimic that, but every song is completely on the nose.

[Alienmorph]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLDMg9ABiIg

So Star Trek Discovery might be even more poorly written than generally thought. As in a good chunk of it might be straight up plagiarized.

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouA24T1Tz-Y

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpUznQds8p4

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGmDCTNQc8g

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5J5paX7Iok

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZxB5qd7NZ0

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc-7YxClrPU

[Dragaros]

http://www.scifijapan.com/articles/2018 ... n-blu-ray/

[Dragaros]

Thats the point. Luke at that point is an old, broken man. He cut himself off completely from the force. Thats the equivalent of Jesus cutting himself off from God.

Thats why its such a big deal that he was able to beat Kylo Ren with nothing but a force projection. Its why its such a big deal that he disappears at the end of that movie. Thats not just "The writers wanted to write Luke out." He is, for all intents and purposes, a prophet ascending to heaven.

He has become whole again.


Thats why it baffles me that people (or more accurately, Star Wars fans) hate that movie. It depicts the force as described by Yoda described it. i dont even LIKE Star Wars that much and I can still see that.

That's because you're looking at from a different angle. I'm not trying to change your mind on the film, but I might be able to explain the other side's perspective on things.

There are those who hate it because they don’t accept that Luke would become a broken man that would cut himself off from the Force. They don’t accept that Luke would fall so far that he would need to become whole again. They find the very idea that he would need to be incompatible and insulting. A lot of people don’t buy that he’d run away from his problems and abandon his family. A lot of people don’t buy that he’d do nothing while innocent people were being butchered. For some its not that they don’t understand it, its that they don’t believe it fits with Luke’s character, and take umbrage at what they see as the films’ cruel and inequitable deconstruction of everything Luke is as a person, as a hero, as a Jedi, as an idea. To those people, its similar to how Metroid fans reacted to how Samus was interpreted in Other M, or how Superman was interpreted by Zack Snyder in the DCEU. They don’t mind Luke dying/becoming one with the Force, they mind the reasons for why or how he died. They don’t mind Luke having made mistakes, but becoming utterly broken by them is absurd to them. Luke ascends to “heaven” having done nothing to really correct the problem he helped create. For some people, the film is like “Well, Luke fucked up royally, fans were wrong to put him on such a pedestal because he wasn’t that great, he has nothing to contribute to this struggle, which is partially his fault to begin with, but on his way out the door he can inspire the next generation to fix his mistakes.” They don’t care for the film’s attempts to tear down the legend.

To some people, Rian’s take on Luke is a sharp regression, not a natural progression of the character. They see TLJ’s arc for Luke as an incorrect puzzle piece trying to fit were it doesn't belong, an attempt to fit a huge square into a tiny triangle sized hole. Rian’s interpretation of Luke is not the “real” Luke in their eyes. And having the Force Ghost of Yoda come back to admonish him for being such a failure and forgetting who he is and what he’s learned is another nail in the coffin for some people. Luke was to bring back the Jedi, but the new movies show that he failed. If Rey brings back the Jedi after when trilogy concludes, some people will feel like Luke had his destiny stolen from him.

Luke is presented in TLJ as a bitter, jaded, pessimistic, suicidal failure devoid of hope, unable to move on from his mistakes and unwilling to correct them, cowardly and callously forsaking his responsibilities and abandoning his loved ones, selfishly uncaring of the galaxy burning down around him, and is in need of a redemption arc to rediscover who he is. A betrayal and misunderstanding of the character in the opinion of many. For those people, the Luke we get at the end of the OT, a fully realized person and Jedi Knight after all his trials and tribulations, would not have turned into Rian’s Luke, would not have made those choices and decisions, would not have let things go the way they did, so the arc for Rian’s Luke is artificially and inappropriately forced onto the character. I’d be a fine, beautiful storyline for another character, just not for Luke. A lot of fans just don't buy the reasons TLJ gave to to explain why Luke is the way he is; they find them inadequate, unconvincing, lazy, and contrived. Think of it like this: if someone did a story about Superman mentoring Supergirl, and he did a poor job resulting in her joining Darkseid, and then Superman ran away, used a form of kryptonite to strip away his powers, and lived as a hermit waiting to die on a remote backwater planet while Darkseid used Supergirl to ravage the universe, would you say that was in-character for Superman, or would Superman do everything in his power to try to fix the problem? For some people, Luke Skywalker is their Superman.

There are fans disappointed with the manner in which Luke dies. Luke's time in the mortal coil run out because his astral projection really takes it out of him. From their perspective, Luke's pretty much dying of exhaustion because he Forced too hard and some arbitrary rule says astral projections can strain you that bad. That’s lame to some people no matter what symbolism, metaphors, pretty visuals, lore, acting, or poetic meaning you layer on top of it. They just don’t see that as a fitting end to the legend of Luke Skywalker, however much it inspired future recruits of the Resistance in-universe. Obi-Wan sacrifices himself to Vader’s blade to make the others flee so they don’t get caught/killed trying to save him, Qui-Gon falls in honest battle, Yoda dies of old age. Luke gets none of those.

And there are also some people would have been onboard with Luke's arc in TLJ if they didn't feel like the film was so heavy-handed and mean-spirited about it in their view. They see the film as going “You were a fool to look up to Luke as a hero. We’re going to tear him down and viciously deconstruct him and show you all his terrible flaws and rub your face in it. He’s a failure who made the same mistakes as the previous generation. Forget the past, its dead. Your heroes weren't special.” Those people like the idea, but not the execution of the idea.

Mark Hamill himself had issues with this, as he stated in interviews. He can say he regrets saying them and making them public, but he still said them. “Although a part of me said to Rian, ‘but you know, a Jedi would never give up’. My concept of the character was that even if I chose the New Hitler thinking he was the New Hope, yeah I'd feel terrible, but I wouldn't secret myself on an island and then turn off the Force.” “I at one point had to say to Rian, ‘I pretty much fundamentally disagree with every choice you’ve made for this character. Now, having said that, I have gotten it off my chest, and my job now is to take what you’ve created and do my best to realize your vision.'” There are fans that think Hamill's take and instincts on the character is the "real" Luke, and Rian's is Luke in name only.

If you got a premonition from God saying your nephew was going to be the next Hitler and there was nothing you could do to stop it, you wouldn't, at least briefly, contemplate killing him too? Also I dont think Luke ever does believe Kylo can Be redeemed. Hence my favorite exchange in the entire movie, "Are you here to 'save' me?" "No."

Why on earth does anyone believe that Kylo is a "jedi master". He is essentially a Jr High dropout that a much more powerful Sith lord (who threw Rey around like a ragdoll) is using. Furthermore Anakin could build droids and fly spaceships when he was 5. Luke could too, but he was discouraged to do so by his caretakers. Luke was able to learn to fly an X-wing better then the top pilots in the rebellion and Darth Vader in, what, a few weeks? He was able to use the force to angle a shot into a target that extremely advanced targeting systems couldn't hit. That is equally as unlikely as anything Rey has done.

Luke vs Vader was a fledgling vs a Master. Rey vs Kylo is fledgling vs a fledgling.

And again I say. Even Luke said Kylo was already lost. It was Rey that thought she could 'save' him.

The Force didn’t come down to Luke like God talking to Moses or Abraham and giving a grand warning. It wasn’t a premonition or vision of the future. He was just reading his thoughts/feelings while he slept. Basic telepathy/empath abilities. But if Ben was so full of evil of that scope, had already been turned by Snoke as he says, how did it escape Luke’s notice for so long? Why would he wait that long to do anything about it when he was suspicious because she saw glimpses of it during his training as he says? Why do it in secret, in the dead of night, sneaking into Ben's hut while he slept instead of confronting him honestly head on? Some would argue that's lazy writing, or argue it paints Luke with very heavy brush of incompetence. Luke seriously considering killing his own nephew while he slept in the way the movie portrays is seen by some as a rookie level mistake, worthy of ESB Luke or even RotJ Luke, but not a post Original Trilogy Luke that's supposed to be a wise and fully realized Jedi Master who's learned from his past blunders. Many Star Wars fans would argue that Luke never believing Kylo could be redeemed without even trying betrays one of the most critical foundation blocks of his character, that he never gives up on his loved ones.

I’m not seeing anyone worthy of having a serious conversation with saying Kylo Ren is on the level of a Jedi Master or Sith Lord. Just that he’s had a big head start on Rey in terms of lightsaber combat and realizing his Force talent and acquiring Force abilities. Its obvious his training is not compete. The first film directly states that, and it seems clear his inability to solidify his commitment to the Dark Side blocks his full potential. But he's not a novice or a fledgling. He's somewhere in the Padawan range. I thought it was obvious Rey only beats him in TFA because he was running on fumes from his emotional instability over recently killing his dad and his giant wound from Chewie's bowcaster. But TLJ presents Rey as being Kylo Ren’s equal after he’s healed up, even though she’s only been using the Force for less than a week, has no real Jedi training other then two quick, basic, entry-level, bare bones lessons from Luke. Kylo Ren’s not only been training in the Force since he was a boy under really powerful teachers such as Luke and Snoke, he also has the advantage of being the grandson of Anakin Space Jesus Skywalker, and if any bloodline can give you higher than usual Force connection, its that one. The novelization and an interview the writer’s room gave say she’s absorbing knowledge and skill from Kylo Ren because of their Force Bond. So she’s gaining all this power but without putting in any of the work to earn it for herself. No training, no increased spiritual connection to the Force gained through lots of meditation or self-reflection. Just leeching off of someone else's efforts. If one accepts that as a canon explanation, then she's basically copying off Kylo’s proverbial homework, cheating off his proverbial tests, in essence. Not the most noble and heroic notion in the world. And quick, easy routes to power has been portrayed as a bad thing up till now, a trap that can easily leads to Dark Side corruption. Not sure why Disney would be so keen to go down that route with the character. Rey was great in TFA in my opinion: she was a fun, likable character, she had enormous potential, but TLJ runs it all into the ground with bad and lazy writing IMHO.

Luke had to struggle and suffer to gain power and wisdom, even with being a direct child of the Chosen One as a handicap. Luke only makes the miracle shot to blow up the Death Star because Obi-Wan is guiding him from the beyond and Solo saving him from Vader so he can be alive to even make the attempt. Luke didn't get consistently and reliably great in the Force overnight. Luke had 3 years of self-taught Force training between films as he went on various adventures, and anywhere from weeks to months under Yoda's tutelage, plus the training he did after ESB and before RotJ. Luke’s not treated as being the best pilot in Episode 4, even with his enhanced senses/reflexes/instincts/awareness via the Force to give him an unnatural advantage. He’s a great pilot given his lack of experience, but he's not regarded as the best. Luke doesn’t outfly Vader. Vader would have killed his ass dead before he made the shot if it weren’t for Han Solo.

Luke's entire philosophy about the force is different from any Jedi we have seen. He is a grey jedi. He believes in the balance of light and dark. Even in the first movies he tapped into both sides. Further, have you also considered that the fact that the darkness Luke felt in Kylo ran so deep that it scared him more then Darth Vader ever did? Did Luke try to redeem the Emperor? No, he tried to redeem a man he felt could be redeemed.

As someone who wanted Disney to make Luke a Grey Jedi, and explore that concept in detail, I did not walk away with that impression. Luke never tells Rey to tap into the Dark Side --or does so himself--he just has her be aware of it and its place in the natural order. His view on the Force is indeed more of a yin-yang balance then the “The Light is the true Force and the Dark Side is a corrupt perversion of it” of old, but Star Wars has been moving away from that for years. It popped up frequently in the Clone Wars and Rebels shows for example. But Luke seems more like the Light side fully realized as it was meant to be by stripping away the narrow, dogmatic restrictions and oppressive rules of the old Jedi Order IMHO. I haven't seen anything in canon that states Luke is a Grey Jedi in TLJ either. Luke’s use of Dark Side abilities in the OT all happened before he’s a fully realized Jedi Knight and overcomes his great temptation at the end of RotJ. Also, that was during a time when the Star Wars lore was still young and subject to frequent changes and re-writes. Back then Force Choking wasn’t a Dark Side exclusive ability; it became one later on. (Similarly, back then Palpatine wasn’t a Sith Lord, just a non-specific Dark Side user, and the Mandalorians were totally extinct, and the only remaining element of their civilization left was Boba Fett’s armor. I've got books that are hilariously outdated in regards to Star Wars canon in my collection)

Palpatine was neither former friend nor family, nor had his commitment to the Dark Side been witnessed or been anyone's failure of responsibility. Ben is Luke’s nephew, he’s known him since he was born, took it upon himself to train him. That’s a totally different thing. Apples and oranges. Most people would argue a key part of Luke’s character is that he never abandons his loved ones. Palpatine was evil incarnate, and proved that constantly. Ben can’t bring himself to kill his mom, is torn up over killing his father despite his protests, seems genuinely sad when Rey doesn’t join him, and is clearly harboring a lot of self-loathing and doubt even as he tries to peacock his certainty and commitment to his course to others. He’s evil, but he’s not pure, irredeemable evil like Palpatine.

If Ben was harboring such evil inside him that it would make Luke Skywalker give up on family without even an attempt, then show, don’t tell. Because actions speak louder than words, and his actions, vile as they are, haven’t painted him as being worse than Vader. Anakin’s done more evil things during his time as Vader than Ben has so far as Kylo Ren, and for a far longer length of time. The suffering Kylo Ren has inflicted on the galaxy is a drop in the bucket compared to Vader. I’m not saying Ben deserves redemption; I’d love nothing more than to see Chewie choke the life from him slowly. Ben is a punk ass bitch.

She defeates Luke fucking Skywalker in combat.

Ok... I know this was a while ago but...

Are you referring to the time where Luke Skywalker makes a fool of her and is able to completely disarm and beat her with nothing but a stick while being completely separated from the force, and she only wins when she pulls out a lightsaber?

At that point he is using the Force again. He uses the Force to blow apart the stone house when he sees Rey and Kylo having one of their chats, uses the Force to pull the stick to him, and uses the Force to soften his fall when he stumbles.

But I interpreted that scene as Luke not trying his all in that moment, and is rusty on top of that. He's holding back, only using a small fraction of what he's truly capable of. I think if he really wanted to he could have KO'd her easily.

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG6ZMYBWU1I

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B52gv7ZNLLY

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgIJfoo0n9Q

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngl2W_VLp1o

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7wzBVARwaU

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86FTZQEEpOg

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__c_SVavGF4

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IOw3z-sRNI

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxphAlJID9U

[Dragaros]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMWHBUTHmf0

[Raga]

*lots of stuff about Star Wars*

Basically this all seems to boil down into whether or not people think Luke was some singular, amazing legend/hero/savior guy or not. And he's just...not. No main character in the Star Wars movies at least has ever been that. They have all been severely flawed. They have all been notable moments in the Force but the farther back you pull, the smaller they become. They have always succeeded for the moment to have the greatest things they did in their life supplanted by somebody else or obscured in some on-going cycle of light/dark yin/yang twining. Star Wars isn't about heroes. It's about The Force.

It's why the consistent moral center, the closest thing to a "perfect" Force user we see, who appears over and over to dispense advice and ground things and give perspective is Yoda. A little muppet creature who sounds like Fozzy Bear in an ill-fitting habit. The chill zen guy, the wise old man on the mountain.

Not a hero. Not a star-fighter. Not a warrior. The guy who doesn't look away to some distant point, obsessed with saving the day or the work of his life being undone or evil rising again or whatever. The guy who is right here, right now with the Force because all of it is part of the Force.

[TheodoricFriede]

Pretty much all that, but I didnt feel like responding to something that long.