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Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

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Mobius_118
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 2nd, 2019, 2:12 pm

Joblom wrote:

Mobius_118 wrote:
And I'm sure you're perfectly aware that border crossings went down significantly since before the Obama Administration, and that the Obama Administration was quick to deport those that overstayed visas, as well as his policies to fund increased border security without a wall. Which worked.


This is misleading and irrelevant to the discussion at hand. None of that was nearly enough. It is the demographic trends I wanted halted or even reversed so that the nation can remain stable and prosperous for future generations.

Is "the wall" the best way to achieve this? Hardly, but at least it is something physical and it will help, even if only marginally. We both know this isn't really about the wall or about money though, don't we?


And we had that right up until trump took office. Now, companies are moving their business out of the US. Harley Davidson, IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, GE, Foxconn, the list goes on.

You want the US to prosper. I have an idea: quit electing republicans. Crazy, I know, but just going off the last 19 years we had 2 GOP administrations that have cut taxes for the rich, had major corruption problems, and have allowed the 98% of the rest of us get pissed on like trump did in Russia.

The wall is a symbol of racism, essentially. It won't stop shit and gives the dumbfucks of the country, that 35% of the total population, something to jerk off to as their wages, benefits, and environment continue to deteriorate.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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TTTX
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » February 2nd, 2019, 3:13 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:And we had that right up until trump took office. Now, companies are moving their business out of the US. Harley Davidson, IBM, Microsoft, Verizon, GE, Foxconn, the list goes on.

You want the US to prosper. I have an idea: quit electing republicans. Crazy, I know, but just going off the last 19 years we had 2 GOP administrations that have cut taxes for the rich, had major corruption problems, and have allowed the 98% of the rest of us get pissed on like trump did in Russia.

The wall is a symbol of racism, essentially. It won't stop shit and gives the dumbfucks of the country, that 35% of the total population, something to jerk off to as their wages, benefits, and environment continue to deteriorate.

Pretty sure the companies were going to move, at least their production elsewhere, regardless of who was in power as it has already happened over here in Europe simply because there are workers over in countries like Asia and there is a lot of potential for economic gain as there are more people over there, problem is they don't have as much money per citizen, but they make up for it in numbers and willing to work for less then well we do (and there less regulation and such stuff).

Pretty sure the rich will find ways to not pay as much as the rest of us, I should know we once had a politician (before I was born) pretty showed how easy it was cheating in taxes and yeah people where not happy and laws to be made etc. (he also served time in jail because of it and wasn't popular among the other politicians that much after that). Anyway all you need is a loophole and the rich knows how to use those.

I would rather say it's a symbol of pointsesles rather the racism as protecting ones borders aren't racist and with your rules as soon as kid is born on your side grants a type of citizenship well it's asking for trouble in many ways and that's not even counting criminals who will also try and cross the borders.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Raga
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 3rd, 2019, 3:04 am

Sinekein wrote:I don't think there is another country in the world where the words "blue collar" or "white collar" have more significance than the U.S., who are not exactly a communist regime.


I've never disputed the usefulness or aptness of some of the terminology he uses. Heck, I've referred to myself multiple times as "unapologetically petite bourgeoisie." But extracting terms from a particular political philosopher has never meant that their underlying argument is worthwhile (else virtually every Greek or Roman philosopher in the history of ever would have to be correct, even though many are wildly contradictory, because we've indiscriminately mined their works for terminology and aggressively adapted and changed their meaning over eons. Telos much? Logos? I promise Derrida doesn't mean the same thing by Logos that Thomas Aquinas means by it, let alone various ancient Greeks who themselves used it in contradictory ways).

Furthermore, I'm not really an expert on which of these terms even originated with Marx. Proto anarchism and socialism predates him by decades after-all so it's entirely possible (and probable) that he's in fact borrowing a lot of those words from other sources.

What's wrong with Marx are the solutions he proposes to solve the issues of capitalism - and that's what political regimes will rely on


But this (along with dialectical materialism) is literally the only thing that really separates Marx from earlier strains of socialism or from later species of psuedo-socialism like social democracy that fix a lot of the problems socialists brought up without throwing the baby out with the capitalist bathwater. Although his "solution" was aimed at the same point as all of the harebrained materialist utopianisms of the 19th century: the last stage of history, the Eden of pure propertyless, stateless egalitarianism or whatever, he was the one (so far as I know) who put forward that society would *require* the intermediary stage of the "dictatorship of the proletariat." That is, there would need to be a stage where the proletariat forcibly seizes the mechanisms of the government, not to abolish it, but to use its power to compel society to go in the direction it needed to go in, and only then could the government be abolished. And moreover, this is without any of the "affectations" of past systems that constrain arbitrary exercise of government power like natural rights which stinks of liberalism, which he condemns as its inseparable from capitalism, or the codes of antiquity (chivalric or Christian or whatever) because they are oppressive.

How is this anything but a recipe for a gulag state? For purges?

but his diagnostics on society and power dynamics tend to be extremely spot-on, if a bit dated by the evolution of technology and the occurrence of globalisation - but globalisation fits pretty much right in with Marx' class theories, the main difference being that now there is a geographical separation between the bourgeoisie/aristocracy and the workforce.


But it really isn't though, other than occasional moments of poetic profundity (some of which he bizarrely shares with Edmund Burke who is the father of modern conservatism). His diagnostic of power differentials in society in the later half of the 19th century is arguably spot on, but inasmuch as he justifies and situates that within a supposedly scientific framework of history (that is dialectical materialism) and uses that as an explanation for how we got to this moment and as a prediction of where things will go from here, he's wildly wrong. He actually commits the same stupid fallacy that his arguable arch nemeses (the Austrian school economists and their various neoliberal/con descendants) make which is to reduce all of human activity to economics and to shoehorn the explanation for everything through not just an economic filter, but an insanely overly simplistic economic filter devoid of actual data, statistics, or models. Though I'd argue that Marxism is actually much, much prescriptive than Austrian economics.

And there's no need for me to retype that big explanation I gave earlier to the inherent danger in the fact that it claims to be scientific and objective (in explicit comparison to all previous explanations which were irrational), but to summarize it means the "No True Scotsman" thing is baked into it from the beginning. Combine that with the "dictatorship of the proletariat" and the moral certitude and imperative and utopianism of socialism generally, and what results do you expect you will get when its implemented exactly?

Every other thing in Marxism is stuff he got from other people (Hegel as one prominent example, there's something of Rousseau in him as well). The thing that makes Marxism Marxism, the things that make it unique, are the very things that make it dangerous.

I mean, he theoretized class struggle


I don't know that he coined the whole concept of class struggle, but he certainly popularized class struggle as the be-all, end-all mother of all explanations for the nature of things, which as I've made clear in the rest of this is innovative, but insanely dangerous.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 3rd, 2019, 9:34 am

I'd be happy to discuss philosophy further, only in my native language because if I wanted to keep going on I'd have too many vocabulary issues to solve in English for it to be worth the time spent on it. I'll only answer that bit:

Raga wrote:I don't know that he coined the whole concept of class struggle, but he certainly popularized class struggle as the be-all, end-all mother of all explanations for the nature of things, which as I've made clear in the rest of this is innovative, but insanely dangerous.


I merely meant that "class struggle" was a thing that Marx theoretized and popularized. I never said he was right to consider it as the Über-struggle that overrides all other possible conflicts in society to the point that they should be ignored. He was right to point out its existence, and wrong to consider that the entire world should be read through that prism.

As for his focus on economics as a means to analyse history, is he really that far off the mark? The number of wars, civil or not, that were not primarily caused by economical issues is extremely low. There might be World War I, and even then it is debatable - the German industry was booming after a long era of being behind France and the UK, and needed raw materials - which it couldn't easily access because unlike Russia it didn't have a gigantic territory, and unlike France & the UK, it didn't have colonies. World War II can be directly traced back to WWI with the addition of the 1929 crisis and its consequences on society in Germany. The various Catholic/Protestant wars in Europe were in large part a struggle between farmers (mostly catholic) and crafters/merchants (often protestants) whose influenced was rising in society. The Hundred Years War was the showdown between two countries with entirely different (and rival) economical systems, one based on cattle herding (England), the other on crops (France), who tried to extend their mercantile influence among their neighbors. Another conflict that occurred along the exact same division? The Rwanda genocide, caused by the Hutu (farmers) on the Tutsi (shepherds). The first European settlers who moved to America didn't do so for nationalist or religious reasons, they just had no opportunities back in Europe. Same with the Boers who moved to South Africa, most of them initially were French protestants who were fleeing the aforementioned religious wars and wanted to start a new life - which led to another economic conflict when they started confiscating lands that belonged to native Africans, which is an issue that is still extremely problematic today (only a tiny part of the territory actually belongs to black South Africans, even though they are an overwhelming majority of the population). Even the most quintessential religion wars, the Crusades, were not started with religious fervor in mind: the knights who went to conquer territories around Jerusalem did so because the nobility's number had increased in Western Europe in the last decades, leading to many nobles who had titles but no territory due to not being the eldest sons - to solve that issue, they went to the Holy Land to grab some for themselves.

I mean, sure, you have other issues, like nationalism or religion, they tend to arise from initially economic causes. Trump's fanbase can be oversimplified as "racist", but most of the white populations who support him come from the areas where their economical and social standing has mostly gone down over the last years. In France, the far right thrives where unemployment is sky high, not because those people are fundamentally racist, but because they come with easy solutions (migrants, usually) to explain why their situation is so much worse now than it was a few decades back.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » February 3rd, 2019, 6:54 pm

I'm posting this here just to be safe, since it's still technically political. But this is the textbook definition of "point and laugh" and not anything to be taken seriously:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqRB63_sH2c

Yes, according to Kotaku, there's a diversity problem in Overwatch hentai :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » February 3rd, 2019, 6:57 pm

Alienmorph wrote:
Yes, according to Kotaku, there's a diversity problem in Overwatch hentai :lol: :lol: :lol:

...So... let me see if I understand this.

There is a diversity problem in Overwatch hentai...But not Overwatch.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » February 3rd, 2019, 7:16 pm

TheodoricFriede wrote:There is a diversity problem in Overwatch hentai...But not Overwatch.


Yes, because most of the porn this one feminist cretin found features straight sex scenes and overall seems to cather to hetero while males, and there's not enough porn that features body types other than "thin and with huuge t&a".

I almost felt off my chair when I saw the title alone :lol:

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 3rd, 2019, 8:00 pm

Sinekein wrote:I'd be happy to discuss philosophy further, only in my native language because if I wanted to keep going on I'd have too many vocabulary issues to solve in English for it to be worth the time spent on it. I'll only answer that bit:


I wasn't really trying to start a technical philosophical debate. My point is just that we borrow words from philosophers (and thinking people generally) all the time, but it doesn't necessarily mean we endorse their underlying argument. The only sort of technical word I used that actually matters is "dialectical materialism" which is often used as a synonym for "historical materialism" which is how I'm using it. (Which at least so far as I can tell is this in French: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat%C3%A9 ... historique)

We can stop if you want, but my understanding is that this explanation for history goes well beyond arguing that economics cause conflicts. It specifically argues that all of human history can be explained by dividing it into eras, each dominated by two opposing forces - the proletariat and the bourgeoisie. Each era has a different bourgeoisie class on top who are masters of that particular era's means of production. The era ends when some members of the former proletariat manage to amass enough power (usually through some means of production) that they can overthrow their previous masters and install themselves as the bourgeoisie of the new era. Capitalism is the second to last "era" because capitalism is so good at reducing basically everybody into penniless workers that when they inevitably rebel and become the new masters, there will be so many of them that it will encompass basically everybody, the whole proletariat will finally become the masters, the last stage of history, communist utopia, blah, blah.

On top of all that, Marxism claims that this explanation is somehow scientific, when obviously it's not because Marx did not arrive at this explanation after conducting experiments or studying models or gathering data or doing any of the stuff that "science" actually does. But because of the claim that it's scientific, it puts anybody arguing against it into the same place as people arguing that climate change isn't real. It also means that when people try to "adapt" it into a real world implementation and something goes horribly wrong, they can claim "well, we know that the underlying explanation is true and scientific so it must be that some infiltrator with false ideas sabotaged it or that we just got our calculations slightly wrong this time."

It's like, I dunno, NASA trying to launch a probe to Pluto using Ptolemaic astronomy that believes everything revolves around the Earth and getting it wrong over and over and just assuming they haven't got the math quite right when the real problem is that the underlying assumptions about the solar system they are using is false.

So, yes, he's correct that most conflicts involve economics in some degree or other, but that's not really what makes Marxism Marxism. That's like the broadest generalization one can make of Marxism without dropping it altogether. And at that point you could employ the same technique to Mein Kampf and say "A lot of conflicts involve ethnic or racial struggles" and that would also be true.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 3rd, 2019, 9:08 pm

Raga wrote:And at that point you could employ the same technique to Mein Kampf and say "A lot of conflicts involve ethnic or racial struggles" and that would also be true.


You can't because Hitler did not create the theory of ethnic or racial struggle, he established a theory of racial superiority, which is entirely different. His conclusions and ideas were obviously wrong, but so was his analysis, because he pulled the idea of an "Aryan ideal" out of his ass. Nothing ever proved his theories (Jesse Owens disproved them quite spectacularly in 1936) because they did not come from an analysis of human history, it came from the delusions of a madman.

Marx' opposition between working classes and ruling classes - not necessarily one of each - came from an historical analysis. And his analysis is worth a read. His conclusions or predictions might be wrong, but the original idea was correct.

So instead of NASA using completely wrong basic ideas, it would be more akin to NASA crafting an extremely efficient spaceship, and using it to find oil on the moon and on Mars. Even though the use of the technology would be worthy of a facepalm, it doesn't make the whole building process uninteresting, far from it. And others could use the very same technology to actually do something useful.

Again, that's not an endorsement of Marxism on my part. The analysis was sound, the conclusions were not. Ignoring the conclusions is fine, but dissing the analysis is not. And equating Marx with Hitler using some kind of horseshoe/extreme equivalence reasoning is absolutely wrong, it's not because one is worshipped by the far right and the other by the far left that there is any kind of equivalence between them.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 3rd, 2019, 9:43 pm

Sinekein wrote:The analysis was sound


Inasmuch as the analysis consists of "extreme inequality sucks and has basis in history and I want to find out what caused it," sure, but again that's not uniquely Marxist and is like the broadest interpretation of Marxism you can take without completely scrapping it.

And I'm not comparing Nazism and Marxism because they happen to occupy opposite sides on a political spectrum that people made up (which I already said is overly simplistic anyway). Though it is the case that the spectrum matters because people believe it and use it to organize and classify ideas. The reason I'm comparing them is that between them if you look at, say, the top five most murderous regimes in the history of man, they are almost assuredly using one of those two for inspiration and that matters.

If anything, I think people are eager to excuse Marxism because of where they think it sits on the overly simple political spectrum and not because they actually think the mostly anachronistic verbiage that apply to people working in Gilded Age factories is that relevant to the modern day (at least not without aggressive adaptation).

Marxism is intrinsically appealing to people who explain most of human activity through a lens of oppressed/oppressor, master/slave, have/have-not because it's one of the original and most potent of that master interpretation of things.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 3rd, 2019, 10:00 pm

Before this degenerates into some back and forth that mostly consists of "Marx sucks!" and "no, he doesn't!" which is where it seems destined to go, a question.

Do you believe a *philosophy,* a series of abstracted ideas can be intrinsically dangerous? Or a particular method of analysis? Is the only thing that can be intrinsically dangerous an actually wrong cockamamie conclusion (Hitler - the Jews did it!) or is it possible for something to go horribly wrong way before that in the neighborhood of first principles and formulating hypotheses?

And example of what I mean would be sort of how the New Atheist regard religion. For them, the issue isn't that certain religious beliefs go horribly wrong. It's that believing in God (who for them isn't real) sets up your whole worldview as based in fairy stories and that this is inherently dangerous because it pretty much guarantees you will go astray in bad ways.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 3rd, 2019, 10:28 pm

Joblom wrote:
It's hardly irrelevant; it should be taken into account when setting government policy. The issue of the day should be that we need to talk about these things openly and rationally, to ensure that ethical and rational people are the ones driving the discussion and ultimately shaping the future policies and cultural moors. Denying reality and wishing it away will only promote more failed policies, degrading life for everyone, and will also drive the discussion into the hands of the most extreme.

I understand the fear that the recognition of human sub races and their differences (especially cognitive) causes; it could be used to justify making entire races of people second-class citizens or worse. However that is only likely when recognition is being swept under the rug and discussion is refused.


It's irrelevant in the sense that there is no moral way to codify laws regarding the general differences between average people and remain a philosophically liberal nation. We can do so with outliers because they are.

What is to be done if we proved that blacks are dumber than everyone else? Or that Asians can't drive? Or Jews are subversive? Or whites want to conquer? Or Mexicans are lazy? Or women are hypergamous, disloyal, conniving, incomplete-people? What about mutts? What about people who defy their sub-race designation?

We could all sit down as a nation and hammer these details out, who gets what, denied what, but our leaders sold out our cultural homogeneity for the wonders of globalist diversity on a massive scale, so you and I aren't going to come out happy from that debate.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 3rd, 2019, 10:51 pm

Not to mention that even if you could somehow come up with an objective quantification of the differences between peoples, that still doesn't tell you who should get what. Like, who says the smartest people are best? Why isn't it the most cooperative? Or the most aggressive? Or the most well-rounded or whatever?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 4th, 2019, 4:45 am

Raga wrote:Marxism is intrinsically appealing to people who explain most of human activity through a lens of oppressed/oppressor, master/slave, have/have-not because it's one of the original and most potent of that master interpretation of things.


That's true, but the mere fact that all murderous regimes of Marxist inspiration became egregious examples of oppressed/oppressors is a not so subtle hint that whatever the original idea was, it had been deeply perverted. And it's still the case even among Marxists in democratic regimes, who tend to be mighty fine with violence against the wealthy as some kind of fair retribution. I don't think Marx said that the goal of the proletariat should be to make the ruling classes pay, yet somehow that's something that seems universally considered as a subtext.

Raga wrote:Do you believe a *philosophy,* a series of abstracted ideas can be intrinsically dangerous? Or a particular method of analysis? Is the only thing that can be intrinsically dangerous an actually wrong cockamamie conclusion (Hitler - the Jews did it!) or is it possible for something to go horribly wrong way before that in the neighborhood of first principles and formulating hypotheses?


I think some abstract ideas can be intrinsically dangerous, yes. To consider Hitler's case, antisemitism aside, he was a logical continuation of sorts of the various theoricists of racial superiority that have existed since forever under a variety of forms - in the 19th century, they were phrenologists, using skull shapes to analyze people's intelligence (and conveniently concluding that the Caucasian man was the apex of humanity). That idea, for me, will always go wrong no matter what.

Other ideas can go wrong under certain circumstances, but are not necessarily so. In that category I would consider the Marxist theories we discussed. I don't think it's inherently wrong to analyse societies as oppressor/oppressed or ruler/worker dynamics. I don't think it's wrong either to believe in a divine intervention that created the universe, or Earth, or life, as the actual mechanics are insanely complex, and still not entirely understood. Those usually go wrong when people start to consider that any deviation from their own theories is wrong and should be fought - that is a similarity between Marxist regimes, and fundamentalist religious ones.

Of course in Marxism cases there is the ecological conundrum that the model does not react well to the existence of cheaters or abusers, so it kinda requires to be universal to work. But at small scales, it can actually work.

One of the main reasons I make a difference between far-right and far-left theories is that in France we have had both getting in local power over time - mostly through mayors being either National Front, or Communist Party. And, in my opinion, while far-right mayors have been universally disastrous (and still are) since their sole goal seems to be to keep people in fear so that they get reelected, many far-left ones have done a very good jobs. I mean, sure, local taxes are very high in their cities, but they also tend to have very good public schools, decent infrastructure, and a huge emphasis on the access to culture for all. The library in the communist town I went to school in was amazing considering its small (8k people) size, and there also was a super cheap music school, a super cheap theater, many super cheap concerts, kids from working class families had the opportunity to travel in summer, etc etc. It really was a city it was nice to live in, by no means perfect, but still easily on the good side of the decency line.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 4th, 2019, 5:36 am

Sinekein wrote:One of the main reasons I make a difference between far-right and far-left theories is that in France we have had both getting in local power over time - mostly through mayors being either National Front, or Communist Party. And, in my opinion, while far-right mayors have been universally disastrous (and still are) since their sole goal seems to be to keep people in fear so that they get reelected, many far-left ones have done a very good jobs. I mean, sure, local taxes are very high in their cities, but they also tend to have very good public schools, decent infrastructure, and a huge emphasis on the access to culture for all. The library in the communist town I went to school in was amazing considering its small (8k people) size, and there also was a super cheap music school, a super cheap theater, many super cheap concerts, kids from working class families had the opportunity to travel in summer, etc etc. It really was a city it was nice to live in, by no means perfect, but still easily on the good side of the decency line.


Sure, but those guys are still subject to the laws of France which include checks on arbitrary government power that protects people's rights. So even if they are full on Marxists or Leninists or whatever, the most they can really ever implement is social democracy. And social democracy totally works. But it also isn't really socialism. It's capitalism with sane tax structure, good public works, and a good social safety net.

I don't really disagree that if there is some higher power that keeps their ambitions in check that on average local implementations of socialism are probably less harmful than local implementations of crazy far-right stuff. (That is at least if they are the kind of socialists who understand how finances work and don't assume they can fund everything on principle).

If some higher power is preventing lower level crazies from violating people's civil rights, it seems like the greatest potential for harm at the local level is through bad financial schemes, in which case I'd actually think some species of uber libertarian would be more dangerous than a generic racist.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 4th, 2019, 3:31 pm

Raga wrote:Not to mention that even if you could somehow come up with an objective quantification of the differences between peoples, that still doesn't tell you who should get what. Like, who says the smartest people are best? Why isn't it the most cooperative? Or the most aggressive? Or the most well-rounded or whatever?

Even if such a complicated system of tiers of service was hashed out, the group of walking tumors that are the best at politics would still weasel their way into power and nudge the lines for their own benefit. Ultimately, for the sake of any group's own best interests, they would need to aggressively defend their slice and push for more as a buffer.

Though to argue the other side, heavily black areas clearly require much heavier police presence. Economic, cultural, or biological, a lot of those areas are still blighted. Jewish neighborhoods require much less. Should the allocation of law enforcement be done on the basis of crime statistics, even when there is a very strong correlation with demographic? Or on demographic alone? The result will (should) be the same, heavier presence in bad areas, but taking a roundabout path to it is disingenuous and means the underlying dysfunction is not addressed.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » February 4th, 2019, 7:23 pm

the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Joblom » February 4th, 2019, 9:35 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:And we had that right up until trump took office.


No, we did not. Trump has attempted to reverse the trends already underway. Whether he can succeed or not I am dubious about. The world of today is not the world of 50's and 60's, in which America had the benefit of its rivals recovering from a massive war that left it untouched while the rest of the world was under the yoke of Communism. I know for certain though that some globalist Democrat is only going to make the problem worse. Virtually every Left wing proposal serves to make the country's problems worse in the long run, which makes sense when you consider that they are the "no nations, no borders" crowd. It's what they want.

For the US to prosper requires far more than good jobs. We need a balance between the cost of labor and the cost of manufacturing goods. We also need stable political and cultural trends. Globalism has certainly not helped with any of this. The cheap, disposable goods encouraged by consumerism have not helped either.

If you feel a Wall will do nothing (a dubious idea), then that's fine, but I hope you are also a proponent of a tough crack down on illegal labor, use of state and federal services, and money transfers back to their native countries. This unrestricted immigration does not benefit the American people and is a great contributor to the divisive politics running rampant in the country. It will destroy the nation in the end, all you have to do is look at the polling on the issues and the demographic trends to see that.

Vol wrote:
What is to be done if we proved that blacks are dumber than everyone else? Or that Asians can't drive? Or Jews are subversive? Or whites want to conquer? Or Mexicans are lazy? Or women are hypergamous, disloyal, conniving, incomplete-people? What about mutts? What about people who defy their sub-race designation?


To start with, we recognize that affirmative action and memes about "institutional racism" and "privilege" are invalid. We adjust our immigration policies and foreign policy to match. Male and female evolutionary psychology ought to be taught in schools in sex ed. A lot of pain and misery could be spared on the part of young people if they went into their adult life with knowledge about their own base-line nature. Mind you, understanding human evolutionary history as it pertains to gender also means we may need to reorient out culture back to something more traditional. Go back to what worked, I say. I also don't find it radical or difficult to recognize the general traits of a group but also distinguish individuals from it. I'm not flabbergasted by a black weight lifter or a white sprinter or a really tall person.

I agree with you that this discussion will never take off or get anywhere. There is in my opinion no avoiding the coming strife, chaos, and collapse. That's human nature for you, but it's worth it to try.

Sinekein wrote:
That's true, but the mere fact that all murderous regimes of Marxist inspiration became egregious examples of oppressed/oppressors is a not so subtle hint that whatever the original idea was, it had been deeply perverted.


I think the disposition and behavior of Marxist adherents tells you what you need to know. Long before they ever obtain power they are subversive and disingenuous, winning power through infiltration and manipulation. They erode and obstruct the free exchange of ideas and engage in political violence as they rise to power. The writing is on the wall. We see this kind of behavior on full display with the Marxists of today that have successfully infiltrated Western academia and media.

Marxism seems to appeal to a certain mindset that inevitably feels justified in stepping on the necks of anyone in their way, and all for the greater good, or so they tell themselves. Might there be Marxists naive enough to think otherwise? Sure, but those people aren't the ones making the advances towards institutional power. Those people are destined to be purged after they've won.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 5th, 2019, 1:22 pm

Just a book drop: Marxism: Philosophy and Economics

I've actually been reading about Marxism (and Soviet Russia) off and on for the last couple of years because I realized that that was a huge gap in my understanding at the time. It's still a big gap, but I have managed to fill it in somewhat.

Anyway, the recent conversation prompted me to go fill in the gap a bit more so I started digging around for a book that is a half-assedly decent introduction to the underlying philosophy behind Marxism that wasn't written in impenetrable egghead speech and that didn't involve having to singlehandedly read every stinking thing Marx ever wrote.

I found this one and it's mostly serving that purpose. It's not that long and it's understandable.

Warning that it is written by Thomas Sowell who is a libertarian, but he only critiques Marxism at the end of the book in the last couple of chapters. The bulk of the book is just a description of Marx's philosophical beliefs and methodology, which is what I was after. His criticism has gotten mixed results but so far as I can tell his *description* of Marxism is accurate because he used to be a Marxist and wrote his dissertation on Marxism and also some reviews on Reddit and Amazon by people purporting to be Marxists seem to mostly endorse his understanding of Marxist philosophy. They just don't like his critical analysis of it.


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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 5th, 2019, 3:58 pm

The policeman who shot Emantic Bradford was cleared of wrongdoing.

Even though it is in Alabama, I am not even sure some kind of racist bias is at play here. For me, it just illustrates how BS the good guy with a gun" point can be. Here, we got a good guy with a gun being gunned down by another good guy with a gun because - surprise surprise - it's not that easy to make the difference between a good guy with a gun and a bad guy with a gun in the heat of the moment.

Anyway, if gun enthusiasts are thinning their own ranks, eventually, some kind of sane legislation on the matter might be voted.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 5th, 2019, 10:18 pm

Joblom wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:And we had that right up until trump took office.


No, we did not. Trump has attempted to reverse the trends already underway. Whether he can succeed or not I am dubious about. The world of today is not the world of 50's and 60's, in which America had the benefit of its rivals recovering from a massive war that left it untouched while the rest of the world was under the yoke of Communism. I know for certain though that some globalist Democrat is only going to make the problem worse. Virtually every Left wing proposal serves to make the country's problems worse in the long run, which makes sense when you consider that they are the "no nations, no borders" crowd. It's what they want.

For the US to prosper requires far more than good jobs. We need a balance between the cost of labor and the cost of manufacturing goods. We also need stable political and cultural trends. Globalism has certainly not helped with any of this. The cheap, disposable goods encouraged by consumerism have not helped either.

If you feel a Wall will do nothing (a dubious idea), then that's fine, but I hope you are also a proponent of a tough crack down on illegal labor, use of state and federal services, and money transfers back to their native countries. This unrestricted immigration does not benefit the American people and is a great contributor to the divisive politics running rampant in the country. It will destroy the nation in the end, all you have to do is look at the polling on the issues and the demographic trends to see that.



Taxing the rich at a point that is a touch below what we used to tax the rich will actually do the nation good.

And illegal immigration was being cracked down on hard. President Obama was more harsh than Clinton or Bush, and trump has only sabotaged our ability to properly patrol our borders. The wall will only prove to be a symbol of racism, and even the people down on the border disagree with the notion that a border wall would be effective.

Not to mention the whole "Federal Government seizing properties that run along the border" thing. Something that patriot militias freaked out over when the Obama Administration was in power. It didn't happen. But now it will. And they're silent.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 5th, 2019, 11:53 pm

Anything notable about the State of the Union? I was busy setting up my new room and working out and watching my favorite artist draw lady bulges.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TheodoricFriede » February 5th, 2019, 11:58 pm

Vol wrote:Anything notable about the State of the Union? I was busy setting up my new room and working out and watching my favorite artist draw lady bulges.

Well apparently if it weren't for Donald Trump, we would be in a war with North Korea. So thats a thing.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 6th, 2019, 1:08 am

Vol wrote:Anything notable about the State of the Union? I was busy setting up my new room and working out and watching my favorite artist draw lady bulges.


Same expert level stupidity, only longer.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Joblom » February 6th, 2019, 1:13 am

Taxing the rich at a point that is a touch below what we used to tax the rich will actually do the nation good.[/quote]

To a point. Eventually they will carry their wealth overseas and stop investing it in your country with your radically high tax rate.

Mobius_118 wrote:And illegal immigration was being cracked down on hard.


No it wasn't, not in decades. Every time you refer to the wall as "racism" you speak to your true feelings here.


Vol wrote:Anything notable about the State of the Union? I was busy setting up my new room and working out and watching my favorite artist draw lady bulges.


THIS time the GOP will will black, Hispanic, and women voters for sure. Also, never forget the holocaust. Oh, and we're gonna cure AIDS.

Sinekein wrote:
Anyway, if gun enthusiasts are thinning their own ranks, eventually, some kind of sane legislation on the matter might be voted.


I thought you were pissed at the cop but now it's the civilian's fault? Kind of defeats your argument, doesn't it?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 6th, 2019, 1:45 am

Yes, it has man.

You don't want to accept it, that's your deal. You show your true self when you ignore statistical fact.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 6th, 2019, 7:15 am

Joblom wrote:
Sinekein wrote:
Anyway, if gun enthusiasts are thinning their own ranks, eventually, some kind of sane legislation on the matter might be voted.


I thought you were pissed at the cop but now it's the civilian's fault? Kind of defeats your argument, doesn't it?


I think that in any country with functional gun-owning rules, the cop would be held at least partly responsible for what happened, even if it is established that it was a honest mistake. Involuntary manslaughter at least. Considering the actual US situation, I understand him being exonerated, because if you're called for a shooting and you see a man with a gun running, are you supposed to not react?

But cops have to deal with the issue that at any given moment, "good guys with a gun" can suddenly use their firearms in reaction to a dangerous situation, making it even harder to understand what is going on and to take the correct decision. Especially as many of those gung-ho gun carriers have no proper training, not on how to use it (gun ranges can teach that), but on how to react in the vicinity of a shootout (gun ranges can not teach that).

So it's not that particular civilian's fault. I blame more the culture of gun-loving in America and its political consequences that put "freedom to use guns" above everything, which includes the safety of American citizens (whether they own a gun or not).

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » February 6th, 2019, 10:20 am

read an interesting headline today about Denmark 100 of the rich Danes have as much money ass 1.8 million of the poorest Danes.

just to point this out that lives around 5.6 million Danes in Denmark so that's a pretty big deal.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » February 6th, 2019, 2:48 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KF446Yjcvgg&t=0s

Well the subject is political so I decided to post it here.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 6th, 2019, 4:30 pm

TTTX wrote:read an interesting headline today about Denmark 100 of the rich Danes have as much money ass 1.8 million of the poorest Danes.

just to point this out that lives around 5.6 million Danes in Denmark so that's a pretty big deal.

That's true the world over. At a certain level of wealth, so long as you're even slightly capable of picking the right people to work for you, wealth snowballs into more wealth. Opportunities and security that everyone else doesn't have. It's descendants who tend to fuck it up, since they don't work for it, get a split inheritance, and/or splurge. Or people who receive windfalls and are incapable of handling the psychological experience, i.e., lottery winners. If I fell backwards into a million bucks tomorrow, I'd spend enough to get set up comfortably, have someone dependable invest my money in safe avenues, then live a relatively frugal lifestyle, and that money would outlast me.

Joblom wrote:To start with, we recognize that affirmative action and memes about "institutional racism" and "privilege" are invalid. We adjust our immigration policies and foreign policy to match. Male and female evolutionary psychology ought to be taught in schools in sex ed. A lot of pain and misery could be spared on the part of young people if they went into their adult life with knowledge about their own base-line nature. Mind you, understanding human evolutionary history as it pertains to gender also means we may need to reorient out culture back to something more traditional. Go back to what worked, I say. I also don't find it radical or difficult to recognize the general traits of a group but also distinguish individuals from it. I'm not flabbergasted by a black weight lifter or a white sprinter or a really tall person.

I agree with you that this discussion will never take off or get anywhere. There is in my opinion no avoiding the coming strife, chaos, and collapse. That's human nature for you, but it's worth it to try.

The funny thing is that AA and other programs designed to elevated non-white non-men is only unjust if we believe that we're more or less equals. Because then it's artificial elevation of people who have the capacity to do it themselves, regardless of economics and culture. But if we sat down and decided on objective biological differences between phenotypes, now we have a problem. If it turns out Jamal is an outlier among his kind, and has a 110 IQ, loves electrical engineering, and will likely wither in some ghetto, clearly, society benefits more from having Jamal become an engineer. He is not representative of what blacks "are" according to the new standards, so he is not really black, so it is immoral to keep him in their environment.

Whereas now, although the paradigm is shifting from equality to supremacy in the name of vengeance, Jamal will coast his way to success at the expense of Chang and Ricky, who can be equally as qualified or even more so than him, despite being his "equal." That is bigotry and disgusting.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Joblom » February 6th, 2019, 10:42 pm

Sinekein wrote:
I think that in any country with functional gun-owning rules, the cop would be held at least partly responsible for what happened,


Now you understand the danger of big government and unions for government employees. Of-course the police are going to defend themselves. Though given the account I read in the article you linked, I'm not sure I'd rule the incident as anything less than a tragic accident. Though certainly it could be argued that he should have issued a verbal command before opening fire. He can, and did, argue that he didn't feel there was the time. If you are not in uniform and you pull a gun in a public place then I think you have to accept the risk, especially in a confrontation, of being mistaken as a danger by the police. Much the same way if you are in a SWAT team and you kick in the door on the wrong house it isn't the home owner's fault if you blows your head off.

Involuntary manslaughter only applies if the officer was negligent in some way.


Mobius_118 wrote:Yes, it has man.

You don't want to accept it, that's your deal. You show your true self when you ignore statistical fact.


If you are being honest then you probably just don't know any better. Go look it up. Obama was not hard on illegal immigration. He gave us the "Dreamers" after all. He also cracked down on the governor of Arizona when she tried to do something about it. No Democrat president is going to do anything about immigration since it secures their political power in the long run, standard of living and future of the country be damned.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 6th, 2019, 11:22 pm

Gaslighting? Really?

I've already sent you three different sources on the matter, while you've supplied none. You're the one being obstinate about reality.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » February 7th, 2019, 7:18 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H3soKn-m0A

So Broly and Ed Elric's voice actor was fired from both Rooster Teeth and Funimation over a bunch of faked photos and false accusations of molesting underage fangirls.

Because hastag MeToo, or some shit.

I fucking hate people. Not just SJWs, people in general. No decent human being should be so hellbent on ruining someone's life, whatever their beliefs are.

And if it turns out there was some truth the accusations I'll eat my words on this, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » February 7th, 2019, 10:02 am

Alienmorph wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H3soKn-m0A

So Broly and Ed Elric's voice actor was fired from both Rooster Teeth and Funimation over a bunch of faked photos and false accusations of molesting underage fangirls.

Because hastag MeToo, or some shit.

I fucking hate people. Not just SJWs, people in general. No decent human being should be so hellbent on ruining someone's life, whatever their beliefs are.

And if it turns out there was some truth the accusations I'll eat my words on this, but I don't think it's gonna happen.

Ah well another decent VA gone from RWBY.
So either Qrow's gonna be killed off soon or just random voice change.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 7th, 2019, 10:54 am

@ Obama immigration policy discussion

Obama is/was a hard cat to read. His policies were aggressively neoliberal for the most part and I believe he really, truly believed all that "There is not a liberal America and a conservative America — there is the United States of America. There is not a black America and a white America and Latino America and Asian America — there's the United States of America." rhetoric of his. It's one reason he was so popular. He was authentic. People believed that he believed that stuff.

To that end, the step up on immigration enforcement at the beginning of his administration might have been a demonstration of good faith on his part to try to get the GOP to the table to do immigration reform. Though it was only after the elites in the party decided Mitt Romney lost because he didn't get enough Latino votes and that long term GOP viability was impossible without Latino votes that they signaled they wanted to make a deal. Hence, the "Gang of 8" negotiations and proposed legislation. But then the Republican base revolted hardcore against this deal which included a large amnesty (somewhat fairly in my view because the last ostensibly bipartisan amnesty deal in the 1980s ended with the practical effect of pro-immigration people getting 100% their way and restrictionists getting nothing, which is also how every immigration reform since 1965 has gone down). The revolt of the base forced the GOP leadership to step back and the deal fell apart.

At that point, I think Obama just went "Well, fuck this" and started implementing what his own base wanted because there was at that point no reason for him not to do so.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 7th, 2019, 11:16 am

This is the kind of thing that makes me want to go for the guillotines:

How Kleptocracy Came to America

There is no class or species of human more pernicious, more evil, more dangerous, and more in need of being shortened by 6 inches or so than that class that builds nothing, invests in nothing, invents nothing, employs no-one, and makes all their money by speculation and having 7 digit lawyers shuffle numbers around in various accounts in underhanded ways.

They are the rich guy equivalent of those people who do nothing but soak up government benefits and spend their money on scratch-offs and cigarettes, except the damage they do is astronomically greater.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 7th, 2019, 12:48 pm

Joblom wrote:If you are not in uniform and you pull a gun in a public place then I think you have to accept the risk, especially in a confrontation, of being mistaken as a danger by the police. Much the same way if you are in a SWAT team and you kick in the door on the wrong house it isn't the home owner's fault if you blows your head off.


Maybe, but the US are one of the very few countries in the world when in the occasion of a shooting, cops might actually meet people with guns that are not responsible for it.

In any Euro country, for example, if there is a shooting, and the cops spot a guy with a gun, he's the shooter. He's not a gun enthusiast who happened to be nearby and decided to enact the NRA's dream of "being the good guy with a gun killing the bad guy".

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » February 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm

Sinekein wrote:
Joblom wrote:If you are not in uniform and you pull a gun in a public place then I think you have to accept the risk, especially in a confrontation, of being mistaken as a danger by the police. Much the same way if you are in a SWAT team and you kick in the door on the wrong house it isn't the home owner's fault if you blows your head off.


Maybe, but the US are one of the very few countries in the world when in the occasion of a shooting, cops might actually meet people with guns that are not responsible for it.

In any Euro country, for example, if there is a shooting, and the cops spot a guy with a gun, he's the shooter. He's not a gun enthusiast who happened to be nearby and decided to enact the NRA's dream of "being the good guy with a gun killing the bad guy".

Which is kinda a shame in some regards as there are probably quite a few gun enthusiats in europe that could get a bad rap, and most likely do, for being a gun enthusiast, even if they'd never place themselves into the situation of requiring a firearms on the street to protect them.

I mean, personally I'd not want to enact a 2nd Ammendment thing in the UK as it currently stands but I am jealous for those in the USA that have the option to defend themselves if necessary, they have that agency. I don't in the UK, I am at the whims of the police, a police that is spread drastically thin already.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 7th, 2019, 2:17 pm

Just some idle thoughts prompted from this book on Marxism I'm reading.

There's a recurring theme I see with many strains of thought that have a stick up their ass about the traditional or current way of doing things. A similarity in socialism, anarchism, libertarianism, fascism, and most of subversive ism soup of the 1960s (postmodernism, post-structuralism, critical theory, etc). That is that they resent that X amount of a person's time, labor, and effort have to be spent in activity that the person gets no direct benefit from, either in monetary compensation or in some sort of self improvement or sense of self fulfillment.

There's a notable strain of this in German philosophy generally. The idea that you are inherently unfree (and thus exploited) if you are in any way under the demands or powers or expectations of other people or society be that in a wage relationship or under social constraint.

I could write a novel about it, but suffice to say that this viewpoint is extremely stupid & self-centered and I hazard a guess that most societies that have severe dysfunction because of belief in stupid ideology probably believe some subspecies of this asinine argument.

*Edit* It's particularly common among people who think themselves smarter than everybody else.

Article on why Sowell (a libertarian) is eager to redeem Marxism from the conflation with Leninism: Bad Marxism for Sowell, which points out basically what I just said:

"Marxists and libertarians agree fundamentally, on freedom as the end for man. While to the Marxists, man is ultimately "species being," and to the libertarians he is radically individual, the idea of man as a moral creature-whether understood as such by the light of reason or through faith in a God with teeth-is equally anathema to both of their doctrines."


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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 8th, 2019, 12:23 am

Raga wrote:This is the kind of thing that makes me want to go for the guillotines:

How Kleptocracy Came to America

There is no class or species of human more pernicious, more evil, more dangerous, and more in need of being shortened by 6 inches or so than that class that builds nothing, invests in nothing, invents nothing, employs no-one, and makes all their money by speculation and having 7 digit lawyers shuffle numbers around in various accounts in underhanded ways.

They are the rich guy equivalent of those people who do nothing but soak up government benefits and spend their money on scratch-offs and cigarettes, except the damage they do is astronomically greater.

Image

Thank you.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Joblom » February 8th, 2019, 1:11 am

Sinekein wrote:In any Euro country, for example, if there is a shooting, and the cops spot a guy with a gun, he's the shooter. He's not a gun enthusiast who happened to be nearby and decided to enact the NRA's dream of "being the good guy with a gun killing the bad guy".


What's your point besides wanting to grab all the guns so we can all be at the mercy of the police?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 8th, 2019, 2:27 am

There's plenty of weapons that I don't think civilians should have access to.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 8th, 2019, 11:31 am

Bernie Sanders is Ready to Rumble

If this is true, it's a bad idea. He will severely fracture the progressive vote and let a neoliberal win the primaries. He's also a dinosaur who has a tremendously high chance of dying in office.

(And I like Sanders a lot. He was my favorite option in the last election cycle).

*Edit*

Another interesting take on Marxism: The Dead End of the Left?

About how the philosophical underpinnings of Marxism remain, keeping the original divestment of all aspects of traditional morality & religion & now successfully shed of any calls to the revolutionary. Which actually means that Marxism in its current manifestation is relentlessly bourgeoisie because it is aligned against the two historical biggest threats to the bourgeoisie: traditional morality/religion & revolution.

Goes some distance toward explaining why big companies suddenly find themselves aligned with like social justice activists and various species of radicals when 50 years ago they would have been mortal enemies.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 8th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Mazder wrote:Which is kinda a shame in some regards as there are probably quite a few gun enthusiats in europe that could get a bad rap, and most likely do, for being a gun enthusiast, even if they'd never place themselves into the situation of requiring a firearms on the street to protect them.

I mean, personally I'd not want to enact a 2nd Ammendment thing in the UK as it currently stands but I am jealous for those in the USA that have the option to defend themselves if necessary, they have that agency. I don't in the UK, I am at the whims of the police, a police that is spread drastically thin already.


How common is armed robbery in the UK? Because that's the only situation where a gun could be useful for self defense, and even then it has so, so many "ifs" and "buts" it's unlikely it will do any good.

You can be a gun enthusiast without having to use a gun outside of a gun range. I'm of a mind that if you own guns and do not exclude the possibility of using them on other human beings, then you shouldn't own guns. I'm somewhat balanced on hunting, as it is necessary in our current crop-reliant societies, but there are far too many complete idiots with a hunting permit.

For the price of a gun, in all likelihood, you can buy a solid security system, solid enough that would-be burglars will decide to go someplace else instead.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 8th, 2019, 2:27 pm

There are aspects of gun culture that neither the suburban wannebee commando AR-15 havers or the super urban "never held a gun in my life" types get.

The bonafide redneck voice for whom guns are cultural artifact, tool, family bonding object, & embodiment of certain aspects of civic virtue gets left out most of the time. I don't even know if Europe has anything like this.

*Edit*

I don't really think I'm exaggerating to say that divesting my family of guns as I was growing up would be only slightly removed of divesting a Jewish family of all its yarmulkes and menorahs or telling an Italian family's grandma she can't make spaghetti anymore.
Last edited by Raga on February 8th, 2019, 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vol
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 8th, 2019, 2:28 pm

Mobius_118 wrote:There's plenty of weapons that I don't think civilians should have access to.

What means should civilians possess to exercise their revolutionary right to dissolve a government and its personnel?

Raga wrote:If this is true, it's a bad idea. He will severely fracture the progressive vote and let a neoliberal win the primaries. He's also a dinosaur who has a tremendously high chance of dying in office.

Who is there to split the vote with? The other names so far are all flavors of milquetoast neoliberalism pretending to be more or less progressive.

About how the philosophical underpinnings of Marxism remain, keeping the original divestment of all aspects of traditional morality & religion & now successfully shed of any calls to the revolutionary. Which actually means that Marxism in its current manifestation is relentlessly bourgeoisie because it is aligned against the two historical biggest threats to the bourgeoisie: traditional morality/religion & revolution.

Goes some distance toward explaining why big companies suddenly find themselves aligned with like social justice activists and various species of radicals when 50 years ago they would have been mortal enemies.

I could put on my tinfoil hat and attempt to bind all the forces at play together into a coherent theory on why this all is, but your explanation sounds better. More academic, official.

But more seriously, the idea is that global nobility want to enshrine their positions and bloodlines forever, and so long as nations exist, traditions, culture, competing powers, this cannot happen. The WASPs had to go. So they co-opt the aspects of Marxism that suit their agenda, the destruction of the soul, using their vessels such as the media, entertainment, and in government, as well as the bourgeoisie who have been convinced material goods, middle class comforts, and "freedom" are objectively better than all the icky stuff we used to do. The lower classes are irrelevant, they keep some of the old ways alive because they have nothing else, but as a bloc, they're powerless. Unless they join forces and start assassinating nobles, destroying infrastructure, and refusing to be ruled. Thankfully, they can be split! Racial lines, fuzzy economic lines (A plumber, a lower middle class college grad, and a welfare queen really are roughly the same on the grand scale) and so on. And if you convince the plumber that the welfare queen is his enemy, the college grad that's he made it and that the plumber is a regressive enemy, and the welfare queen that there's no hope for her but to live for the day, then they're not joining up to, say, plant explosives in the pipes that feed water into California from neighboring states that happen to be near pipes that feed oil and sewage to various places. Or loading up trucks with cinder blocks and creating makeshift blockades in several main veins leading into NYC during rush hour to paralyze the states.

Silly ideas, haha.

But even more seriously, I see the current state of affairs as a natural consequence of all these massive systems interacting, and less a shadowy cabal of puppetmasters. There surely exists some shadowy cabals, but not on the scale of total global saturation. Too broad. But these trends of technology making globalism possible, outsourcing being accepted by the bourgeoisie, mass unskilled immigration not being a threat to them and therefore also accepted, the seduction of consumerism, it all seems to be mostly organic in getting us to a point where the financially comfortable and nobility are working together in the name of morality to shame and fleece everyone else.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » February 8th, 2019, 2:43 pm

Vol wrote:Who is there to split the vote with? The other names so far are all flavors of milquetoast neoliberalism pretending to be more or less progressive.


Elizabeth Warren and Kamala Harris are bonafide progressives. I think the nobody from Texas Julian Castro is as well.

Cory Booker is like halfway between neoliberal and progressive.

Beto O'Rourke and Biden are actually neoliberal.

Gillibrand is nothing but a weathervane. She is whatever it's most advantageous to be at the moment.

*Edit*
Vol wrote:The WASPs had to go.


Funny. Why We Miss the WASPs

Their economics stunk, but it's true they had a much more coherent moral and philosophical framework, which since I'm a theist I don't mind saying is closer to the objective truth.

Unless they join forces and start assassinating nobles, destroying infrastructure, and refusing to be ruled.


There's a strong part of me that finds violent revolution inherently unseemly. But it's a part that my moral/reasonable half tries to combat because sometimes it really is all you can do. Sometimes you do in fact need to water the tree of liberty with the blood of patriots.

But even more seriously, I see the current state of affairs as a natural consequence of all these massive systems interacting, and less a shadowy cabal of puppetmasters.


One place where Marxism is actually right and fascism is wrong. There is no singular big, bad undermining it all. It is mostly a result of processes and not malign individuals.
Last edited by Raga on February 8th, 2019, 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mobius_118 » February 8th, 2019, 3:02 pm

Vol wrote:
Mobius_118 wrote:There's plenty of weapons that I don't think civilians should have access to.

What means should civilians possess to exercise their revolutionary right to dissolve a government and its personnel?



The vote. That was proved during the Midterms.

There's enough civilians owning firearms that can rival the military in your standard bolt action and semi-automatic hunting rifles. The ones that own an AR-15 and use it as a dick extension prove that they are incapable of handling the responsibility of owning something that I can use to put 30 people in the ground.

And, let's be serious here, the patriot militias are useless when the current administration is doing the exact things they proclaim to hate, and they refuse to actually do anything about it.
"So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again" Corrax Entry 7:17


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