Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Raga]

We are in uncharted territory now though because historically elites were at least marginally tied to the particular group of people they governed. Think of like the big corporations in WWII that actually helped build bombs and planes and such for the war effort. Can you imagine Exxon or CitiBank doing that today? Can you imagine Disney making anything like this today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn20oXFrxxg

It made sense because if the US goes to hell in a hand-basket, so do those companies. Even the robber barons of yore, the Rockefellers & Vanderbilts & Folgers and Clarkes and so on, built libraries and schools and poorhouses because they actually had roots in New York or Chicago or wherever. Even a true medieval tyrant who had culturally 0 in common with his vassals (think the first Hanoverian monarchs or the Normans) had to care because all his money comes from the lands he rules.

Today's elite make their money from global markets, can live anywhere they want and access their resources, relocate with impunity, and live in a bubble which means they never even have to see the people they ostensibly rule.

If I have to have elites, at least give me some with roots. It goes back to that stuff from the other day about how people miss the WASPs. I would definitely take them back over what we have now.

[Raga]

Shamima Begum has right to return to UK - Jeremy Corbyn

Fuck sake Corbyn.

No, that fucking traitor doesn't deserve the right to return to the UK you fucking cunt!
She joined a terrorist organisation, had fucking babies with them, they kept dying and now she's managed to cling on to a ISIS sprog she wants to return to the UK and live off benefits because in all likelihood this third baby would also die in Syria.

She has no rights to return here, she can stay with her terrorist husband and die there.

I can't believe the left wing party's head thinks it's okay for a terrorist to return.
For Fuck sake, why not just use our own Military to kill us all now? It'd be cheaper and faster than letting terrorist families in you fucking cunt!

Sorry.....I had to vent that....

They were talking about a US version of this chick on the radio this morning, and NPR had her lawyer on. And the fucker straight up said that the only reason Trump wouldn't let her back in was because he was using her as a test case to try to strip birthright citizenship from people. Oh and also, if she was a white chick who had run off to join a Neo-Nazi group everybody would be very sympathetic and would want to give her due process and would believe she was brainwashed.

The NPR reporter to his credit grilled the dude, but it was still obnoxious. I literally said aloud to the radio "I'll tell you what, fucker. Let her come home and let's try her for treason and execute her. That seems fair." If Edward Snowden can't come home, some idiot girl who ran off to marry a fucker with an explicit agenda of murdering Americans sure as heck can't come home.

[Mazder]

They were talking about a US version of this chick on the radio this morning, and NPR had her lawyer on. And the fucker straight up said that the only reason Trump wouldn't let her back in was because he was using her as a test case to try to strip birthright citizenship from people. Oh and also, if she was a white chick who had run off to join a Neo-Nazi group everybody would be very sympathetic and would want to give her due process and would believe she was brainwashed.

The NPR reporter to his credit grilled the dude, but it was still obnoxious. I literally said aloud to the radio "I'll tell you what, fucker. Let her come home and let's try her for treason and execute her. That seems fair." If Edward Snowden can't come home, some idiot girl who ran off to marry a fucker with an explicit agenda of murdering Americans sure as heck can't come home.

I mean if that was the only reason they are allowed to come home then I'd accept that.

Why are we so fucking removed from our own agency that terrorist sympathisers are considered back in?!
If they were Nazi sympathisers they would be hounded down.

Oh and the implied "Islamaphobia" bollocks.
The last 5 terrorist attacks upon the UK have all been done by radical muslims. Doing it in the name of islam.
I've not got an irrational fear of Islam as it's produced fuckers like that who want to kill me!

[Mobius_118]

Coast Guard LT busted for plans to commit domestic terrorist acts against Democratic Lawmakers.

He was arrested on the 15th, with the story only coming out in the past day or so. The threat we face is domestic, in which no wall will stop.

This is a direct result of trump encouraging violence. The fact that I could consider this man a brother in arms is sickening. He's a disgrace to the service.

[Mazder]

Coast Guard LT busted for plans to commit domestic terrorist acts against Democratic Lawmakers.

He was arrested on the 15th, with the story only coming out in the past day or so. The threat we face is domestic, in which no wall will stop.

This is a direct result of trump encouraging violence. The fact that I could consider this man a brother in arms is sickening. He's a disgrace to the service.

>Terrorist is against Democratic lawmakers and their policies
>MUST BE TRUMP'S FAULT!!!

Sorry, I just don't get this train of thought at all.
I mean, seriously, the guy is against the Democrats, has been for years, shows multiple examples of being a fucking loony over decades, says he's been a white nationalist for over 30 years, reads a manifesto from another Terrorist from 2011, yet just because he is found, not even caught after an attack but preemptively caught, it's Trump's fault?
Somehow?
Despite that technically you can call it an act of "terrorist caught during Trump's administration" which'd give him praise.

The truth is it has nothing to do with Trump, or anyone else that might have been in the White House, or any wall. Making it about the wall is pointless and just has no grounds in....well anything regarding domestic terrorism when it's supposed to combat foreign terrorism, drugs trades, illegal immigration, etc.
Hell, it sounds like this guy was just waiting for an excuse, a ticking time bomb, one that might have gone off if Hillary was the POTUS.

This has nothing to do with Trump encouraging violence.

It is a shame that this person was allowed into the armed forces, but it shows how both sides of the political discourse are ignoring soldier care and are instead focusing on mean words said on twitter.

[Raga]

The wackos have mostly gone back underground. Everything I've read/seen/heard is basically that after Charlottesville most of these outfits figured out that marches and open action just don't work for them because it puts a big spotlight on their heads. Their power is their anonymity. So we are back in circa Ruby Ridge era, where they are inflamed, recruiting, and active, but mostly underground.

There is also an issue with people in the military being in these groups. Not so much because military people are more likely to join, but because they really prize military people because they can train them in paramilitary actions. If you are the type of dude who would join one of these and you are/were in the military, you can basically become a star in the group very quickly.

It'd be interesting to read exactly when the surge in activity started. Trump probably accelerated it, but I'm actually willing to bet it predates him.

[Mobius_118]

*snip*

Because we've had a surge in domestic terrorists quoting and using trumps rhetoric as justification, which sounds conspicuously like white supremacist rhetoric.

You should come to a military function. You'd wonder about most of those boys if they're ready to start killing gays, jews, liberals, and people of color the next day if trump gave the official go ahead.

[Mobius_118]

The wackos have mostly gone back underground. Everything I've read/seen/heard is basically that after Charlottesville most of these outfits figured out that marches and open action just don't work for them because it puts a big spotlight on their heads. Their power is their anonymity. So we are back in circa Ruby Ridge era, where they are inflamed, recruiting, and active, but mostly underground.

There is also an issue with people in the military being in these groups. Not so much because military people are more likely to join, but because they really prize military people because they can train them in paramilitary actions. If you are the type of dude who would join one of these and you are/were in the military, you can basically become a star in the group very quickly.

It'd be interesting to read exactly when the surge in activity started. Trump probably accelerated it, but I'm actually willing to bet it predates him.

Trump accelerated it, all right. The fool has basically sanctioned violence against the media, liberals, immigrants illegal or otherwise. He's said during his rallies that he'd pay the legal fees of anyone who beat the shit out of reporters covering his rallies. I know he wouldn't, but that hasn't stopped his supporters from doing exactly that.

No, this kind of behavior was mostly kept underground. It's because of trump that we've seen these utterly retarded people come out of hiding.

[TTTX]

You should come to a military function. You'd wonder about most of those boys if they're ready to start killing gays, jews, liberals, and people of color the next day if trump gave the official go ahead.

Trump won't as I'm pretty sure he isn't a racist.

Trump accelerated it, all right. The fool has basically sanctioned violence against the media, liberals, immigrants illegal or otherwise. He's said during his rallies that he'd pay the legal fees of anyone who beat the shit out of reporters covering his rallies. I know he wouldn't, but that hasn't stopped his supporters from doing exactly that.

No, this kind of behavior was mostly kept underground. It's because of trump that we've seen these utterly retarded people come out of hiding.

No, they nutjobs have been out in the open for a long while, they just came from the left side and attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them and whole other stuff.

[Raga]

It actually fortunately looks like political violence & lynch mob tactics has tapered off a little. Maybe, that's just my wishful thinking. I saw data the other day that demonstrated that speaker deplatforming by mob at universities was down as an example. Though it's hard to say if that is because universities now only invite milquetoast uncontroversial speakers or because they've actually got a hold on security. There's also been some high profile fuck ups on the progressive lynch mob side recently that has nakedly revealed the issues with these tactics. (Covington Catholic boys and now the Jussie Smollet thing). The news has also stopped responding to every single tweet Trump makes as if it prompts Armageddon. They still respond, but they don't really make a point of quoting his tweets anymore or angsting over *how* he said it. They now actually mostly focus on the policy content of the tweets. The assorted powers-that-be in Virginia are refusing to let the scalpers boot them from office.

It could be nothing, but I actually think people are desensitizing to it a bit. It's still highly, *highly* effective when progressives use it against other progressives though. Most of the really high profile examples of people crashing and burning due to this recently have themselves been uber progressives. Such as:

Progressive online knitting community self-immolates

Uber progressive authors imploding under criticism

Etc.

[TTTX]

It actually fortunately looks like political violence & lynch mob tactics has tapered off a little. Maybe, that's just my wishful thinking. I saw data the other day that demonstrated that speaker deplatforming by mob at universities was down as an example. Though it's hard to say if that is because universities now only invite milquetoast uncontroversial speakers or because they've actually got a hold on security. There's also been some high profile fuck ups on the progressive lynch mob side recently that has nakedly revealed the issues with these tactics. (Covington Catholic boys and now the Jussie Smollet thing). The news has also stopped responding to every single tweet Trump makes as if it prompts Armageddon. They still respond, but they don't really make a point of quoting his tweets anymore or angsting over *how* he said it. They now actually mostly focus on the policy content of the tweets. The assorted powers-that-be in Virginia are refusing to let the scalpers boot them from office.

It could be nothing, but I actually think people are desensitizing to it a bit. It's still highly, *highly* effective when progressives use it against other progressives though. Most of the really high profile examples of people crashing and burning due to this recently have themselves been uber progressives.

Could be because election time is coming next year (or it's because it's hurting business to act like asshole to a majority of people who don't agree with you on everything is bad idea) and they remembered it was one of the reasons why Hillary lost last time around so they want people to forget that stuff, so they have better chance of winning this time around, the question is will return in full force should the Democrates win?

[Mazder]

Because we've had a surge in domestic terrorists quoting and using trumps rhetoric as justification, which sounds conspicuously like white supremacist rhetoric.

You should come to a military function. You'd wonder about most of those boys if they're ready to start killing gays, jews, liberals, and people of color the next day if trump gave the official go ahead.

They may have. This one did not. This one had clearly been mired in his beliefs for years and was more than likely to go off due to how the political left is going in your country and I think Hillary being POTUS would see more attempts at attacks than not. These people who are against her and the left would not just disappear if Trump didn't win. IN fact that's the one thing you wouldn't want them to do...

Again, that doesn't sound like Trumps fault. He does not sound responsible for any action any person would or would not take, especially established people already within your armed forces.
And if such people do exist in your armed forces then the only ones to blame are those currently teaching in said military positions as they're the ones directly responsible for moulding said people into that type of soldier.

[Mobius_118]

You should come to a military function. You'd wonder about most of those boys if they're ready to start killing gays, jews, liberals, and people of color the next day if trump gave the official go ahead.

Trump won't as I'm pretty sure he isn't a racist.

Are you sure about that? Totally sure? Absolutely sure?

He's a fucking racist.

Trump accelerated it, all right. The fool has basically sanctioned violence against the media, liberals, immigrants illegal or otherwise. He's said during his rallies that he'd pay the legal fees of anyone who beat the shit out of reporters covering his rallies. I know he wouldn't, but that hasn't stopped his supporters from doing exactly that.

No, this kind of behavior was mostly kept underground. It's because of trump that we've seen these utterly retarded people come out of hiding.

No, they nutjobs have been out in the open for a long while, they just came from the left side and attacks anyone who doesn't agree with them and whole other stuff.

Yeah nah, it's been right wing nutjobs and libertarians.

Because we've had a surge in domestic terrorists quoting and using trumps rhetoric as justification, which sounds conspicuously like white supremacist rhetoric.

You should come to a military function. You'd wonder about most of those boys if they're ready to start killing gays, jews, liberals, and people of color the next day if trump gave the official go ahead.

They may have. This one did not. This one had clearly been mired in his beliefs for years and was more than likely to go off due to how the political left is going in your country and I think Hillary being POTUS would see more attempts at attacks than not. These people who are against her and the left would not just disappear if Trump didn't win. IN fact that's the one thing you wouldn't want them to do...

Again, that doesn't sound like Trumps fault. He does not sound responsible for any action any person would or would not take, especially established people already within your armed forces.
And if such people do exist in your armed forces then the only ones to blame are those currently teaching in said military positions as they're the ones directly responsible for moulding said people into that type of soldier.

Trump has encouraged violence. That's easily verifiable. It's his words and the words of those with the same mindset that have poisoned the US for decades. We just now have someone who's in the highest office in the land who espouses this kind of behavior.

It's a fucking disgrace, and his behavior is exactly what's wrong with the country. It's exactly what these right wing nutbags, if they actually practiced what they preached, would be fighting against, not fucking falling in lockstep with.

[TTTX]

Are you sure about that? Totally sure? Absolutely sure?

He's a fucking racist.

Even if he is, he isn't complete idiot (he is a narcissist asshole) to announce attack on races and make that legal because then he wouldn't be president for long if he did that, he knows that very well and he doesn't have the power to change that fact.

Yeah nah, it's been right wing nutjobs and libertarians.

Every side have nutjobs, the left isn't different in that regard and they can be just violent and want to destroy people's lives simply to disagree with them or you dare to threaten the narrative.
You should be happy the right wing nutjobs are coming out gives the law enforcement a good chance to find them and put them behind bares instead of it being underground.

[Mazder]

Trump has encouraged violence. That's easily verifiable. It's his words and the words of those with the same mindset that have poisoned the US for decades. We just now have someone who's in the highest office in the land who espouses this kind of behavior.

It's a fucking disgrace, and his behavior is exactly what's wrong with the country. It's exactly what these right wing nutbags, if they actually practiced what they preached, would be fighting against, not fucking falling in lockstep with.

So has BLM.
So do many Senators in the house, but for the Left's ideals.
So when it comes to those who have "poisoned the US for decades" it's a problem on both sides. So quit the high and mighty act, your side is just as bad.

There is literally no difference between your parties when "encouraging violence" is concerned.
Hell, you yourself have encouraged violence in the name of Left wing ideals so it's a bit hypocritical to blame Trump for encouraging violence, especially when it's clearly one damaged individual's crimes in this case.
So in that regard you're all a fucking disgrace and you all need to sort your shit out.

[Mobius_118]

Good god, you're both nuts.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Says the one screaming that everyone around him is evil or insane.

Enjoy being the last Righteous One Mobius. Everyone else has grown tired of your routine.

[TTTX]

Good god, you're both nuts.

Nope, it's called common sense.

[Mazder]

Good god, you're both nuts.

Nuts.
I'm not the one blaming a terrorist's warped mind on another human being all together.
I mean seriously even if, and it's a very big if, Trump's words had some kind of influence over this person, they're still a human being with their own agency. This train of "OMG MORE TERRORISTS BECAUSE TRUMP IS AN ASSHOLE!" line of thought is honestly just silly and childish.
It's the biggest reach to blame something on Trump I have ever seen.

I don't like Trump, he's a cunt, but this is not his fault as he has no interaction with it, no involvement, no responsibility towards it's results.
If he does then Twitter itself is even more to blame for allowing everyone a platform to interact with each other.

[Mobius_118]

Says the one screaming that everyone around him is evil or insane.

Enjoy being the last Righteous One Mobius. Everyone else has grown tired of your routine.

You believe roads aren't paid for by taxpayers and therefore not a form of Democratic Socialism. Then, when I asked if you'd pay for a towns roads you said no. Funny thing, rich people have zero interest in helping others in a way that'll actually benefit people. You're a very special case of that greed.

You also go pant-shittingly insane when historians say Nazi's weren't socialist. You're a victim of Betsy Devo's education plan in Michigan, and it shows.

Good god, you're both nuts.

Nope, it's called common sense.

I gave you decades of evidence, backed up by empirical data and facts on trumps clear and present racism.

You glazed over it.

Don't say you have common sense when you can't even acknowledge reality.

Good god, you're both nuts.

Nuts.
I'm not the one blaming a terrorist's warped mind on another human being all together.
I mean seriously even if, and it's a very big if, Trump's words had some kind of influence over this person, they're still a human being with their own agency. This train of "OMG MORE TERRORISTS BECAUSE TRUMP IS AN ASSHOLE!" line of thought is honestly just silly and childish.
It's the biggest reach to blame something on Trump I have ever seen.

I don't like Trump, he's a cunt, but this is not his fault as he has no interaction with it, no involvement, no responsibility towards it's results.
If he does then Twitter itself is even more to blame for allowing everyone a platform to interact with each other.

No, it's terrorism because the guy planned to kill people. He was given these psychopaths a voice, and it's clear as fucking day that trump and people like him are directly responsible for the sharp rise in domestic terrorism in the United States, as well as encouraging those abroad to follow in his footsteps. His rhetoric has a direct correlation to this bullshit.

Too bad you're so focused on slamming me rather than the actual fucking issue.

[Vol]

Front page of local paper today (yesterday.

"Can NJ keep Trump off the 2020 ballot by passing a law to require tax returns to be released to be on the ballot?!"

"Cory Booker is prescient for giving a milquetoast answer when asked about that idiot who faked a MAGA lynching in Chicago, his testicles are also freshly shaven and lightly perfumed and I love to suck them, because I am the press and neoliberals faking progressiveness gets my penis, which I hate having as much as my white skin color, hard!"

I'm paraphrasing.

[TTTX]

You believe roads aren't paid for by taxpayers and therefore not a form of Democratic Socialism.

It's not, people have taken care of the roads for thousands of years, before Democratic Socialism was even a thing.

I gave you decades of evidence, backed up by empirical data and facts on trumps clear and present racism.

You glazed over it.

Don't say you have common sense when you can't even acknowledge reality.

I don't trust everything I read, everything is written with people with opinions especially at this current moment in time.

No, it's terrorism because the guy planned to kill people. He was given these psychopaths a voice, and it's clear as fucking day that trump and people like him are directly responsible for the sharp rise in domestic terrorism in the United States, as well as encouraging those abroad to follow in his footsteps. His rhetoric has a direct correlation to this bullshit.

Too bad you're so focused on slamming me rather than the actual fucking issue.

Here is the thing though, he didn't start becoming psycho just because Trump became president it was probably years before that and he was going to break sooner or later.
Claiming Trump is the problem is wrong, because people like that is always going off in deep at some point similar to the famous Bomber you once had the Una Bomber I think he was called.

[Mazder]

No, it's terrorism because the guy planned to kill people. He was given these psychopaths a voice, and it's clear as fucking day that trump and people like him are directly responsible for the sharp rise in domestic terrorism in the United States, as well as encouraging those abroad to follow in his footsteps. His rhetoric has a direct correlation to this bullshit.

Too bad you're so focused on slamming me rather than the actual fucking issue.

Yes....I never put into dispute what the description of a terrorist was.
At best I differentiated the difference between domestic and foreign born versions.

In the same way he's given these nutters a voice so did Twitter and other social media, the news media, hell even Free Speech itself!
The only way you can correlate fault is if someone literally screams out loud "IN THE NAME OF TRUMP!" or some shit, then you can claim he has a direct cause for encouraging violence.
Until then it's tangential at best.

And lest we forget all the instances of you wishing to enact violence upon people here. Does that mean Trump is responsible for your little outbursts when you claim to be oh so calm?
It's not even about slamming you, it's about reminding you of your own behaviour and showing you how hypocritical it is to claim that Trump is at fault when you're one of the most left leaning people we have here and still wish to cause more harm to people on this forum directly.
If anything I've seen more examples of you encouraging violence than I have seen trump do so.

And yes, that was me enacting one singular slam.

[Vol]

Read a funny article. One of those professional red-pill bros put out an article on how dating Asian women isn't actually the promised land of traditional gender roles.

He proceeds to cite the example of Japanese women expecting to be given their husband's money in order to handle the household's expenses.

I do not know what this fellow believes the dichotomy to be, but if it involves making the money, budgeting the money, and spending the money, then perhaps an illiterate slave might be more his speed. The fucking point of having a "trad wife" is that she's in charge of hearth and home, and that means taking the money you earn to pay the bills, buy the food, and all that ___domestic___ work that the man is not doing.

We are in uncharted territory now though because historically elites were at least marginally tied to the particular group of people they governed. Think of like the big corporations in WWII that actually helped build bombs and planes and such for the war effort. Can you imagine Exxon or CitiBank doing that today? Can you imagine Disney making anything like this today:

It made sense because if the US goes to hell in a hand-basket, so do those companies. Even the robber barons of yore, the Rockefellers & Vanderbilts & Folgers and Clarkes and so on, built libraries and schools and poorhouses because they actually had roots in New York or Chicago or wherever. Even a true medieval tyrant who had culturally 0 in common with his vassals (think the first Hanoverian monarchs or the Normans) had to care because all his money comes from the lands he rules.

Today's elite make their money from global markets, can live anywhere they want and access their resources, relocate with impunity, and live in a bubble which means they never even have to see the people they ostensibly rule.

If I have to have elites, at least give me some with roots. It goes back to that stuff from the other day about how people miss the WASPs. I would definitely take them back over what we have now.

This really sums it up well. I believe that nobility of some sort or another is inherit to human civilization. We cannot form functioning societies without someone acting as nominal king, and some guys working out rules and regulations, and some guys looking after our souls, and so on. I'll point to the absence of any other arrangement ever having worked as long as this paradigm has. But as you said, those guys were _our_ guys. I do not want Chinese textile companies that are a front for the Party having any input in what I get to read, or African general-presidents pushing clitoral hood removal articles to the frontpage of Silicon Valley sites, or the Israeli government working with the NSA to arrest people for criticizing them. That is a hellscape of entrenched powers that cannot be removed in the traditional way, which at least was a safety valve for incompetent rulership.

Instead we're being groomed like a darling blond 8 year old with garish lipstick on to accept the shaft of shiftless, faceless international rulers who produce nothing, help no one, and take everything, out of some dramatically misplaced sense of guilt over being born into the first world. Fuck that.

[Mobius_118]

Yes....I never put into dispute what the description of a terrorist was.
At best I differentiated the difference between domestic and foreign born versions.

In the same way he's given these nutters a voice so did Twitter and other social media, the news media, hell even Free Speech itself!
The only way you can correlate fault is if someone literally screams out loud "IN THE NAME OF TRUMP!" or some shit, then you can claim he has a direct cause for encouraging violence.
Until then it's tangential at best.

And lest we forget all the instances of you wishing to enact violence upon people here. Does that mean Trump is responsible for your little outbursts when you claim to be oh so calm?
It's not even about slamming you, it's about reminding you of your own behaviour and showing you how hypocritical it is to claim that Trump is at fault when you're one of the most left leaning people we have here and still wish to cause more harm to people on this forum directly.
If anything I've seen more examples of you encouraging violence than I have seen trump do so.

And yes, that was me enacting one singular slam.

Spare me your sanctimonious bullshit, Mazder.

I'm talking to and dealing with a group of people that would happily shoot me in the face if they knew they'd get away with it. I'm reasoning with savages, and violence is the only form of communication they truly understand. Words are wasted on people who think that the rich need more tax cuts, that trickledown economics work, that Nazi's were socialist, that destroying the EPA is smart, and the list goes on.

It's just like talking to people like you who don't have a fucking clue what it's actually like here. You are frustratingly uninformed, and the only way to make you see is to boot you into one of their rallies. You'll get to see just how bad his supporters are, and how he encourages them to go out and seek those who dare to stand against him. Hilariously, his base has continued to be the minority at 35% of the total population of the US. It would be a short struggle.

It's not, people have taken care of the roads for thousands of years, before Democratic Socialism was even a thing.

I don't have the time nor the crayons to detail to you how forms of Socialism are ways that the human race was able to survive, and how roads built before the concept of money were still built by people all agreeing to make a way to easier transport people and goods. Roads for use by the public have always been built by taxpayer money appropriated by a governmental body. That in and of itself is Democratic Socialism. Been called many names, but that's the basis of it.

I don't trust everything I read, everything is written with people with opinions especially at this current moment in time.

I didn't give you an opinion, I gave you actual documented facts. From the time that they happened. By that very same thought process, would you argue that WW2 didn't happen?

Here is the thing though, he didn't start becoming psycho just because Trump became president it was probably years before that and he was going to break sooner or later.
Claiming Trump is the problem is wrong, because people like that is always going off in deep at some point similar to the famous Bomber you once had the Una Bomber I think he was called.

Trump is giving these psychopaths a vocal approval of killing his opponents. He said as such during one of the fucking debates during the elections, and still does during his rallies.

The LT was nuts before, but trump gave him permission to act.

[Mazder]

Spare me your sanctimonious bullshit, Mazder.

I'm talking to and dealing with a group of people that would happily shoot me in the face if they knew they'd get away with it. I'm reasoning with savages, and violence is the only form of communication they truly understand. Words are wasted on people who think that the rich need more tax cuts, that trickledown economics work, that Nazi's were socialist, that destroying the EPA is smart, and the list goes on.

It's just like talking to people like you who don't have a fucking clue what it's actually like here. You are frustratingly uninformed, and the only way to make you see is to boot you into one of their rallies. You'll get to see just how bad his supporters are, and how he encourages them to go out and seek those who dare to stand against him. Hilariously, his base has continued to be the minority at 35% of the total population of the US. It would be a short struggle.

I aint the one acting sanctimonious here mate, you are.
Some terrorist is caught so you have to come out and make this big song and dance about Trump being responsible for a climb in violence despite it being a constant mix of various factors, one of which being how the Democratic side treats anyone it disagrees with as of late.
No "innocent until proven guilty", no "allow people to speak freely to then challenge their ideas, no "standing on your own merits". It's all deplatforming, dismissal and an honest lack of actually wanting to listen to another side if they're not speaking the exact same language in the exact same concepts as yours.
You just can't fathom another line of thinking or access into anything else from the other side, your side has become so rigid and uncompromising that you forgot how to talk and think emphatically to at least understand a train of thought other than your own.
I'd call it indoctrination only you'll spout out some line about being the only "free thinker" in the place or some shit.

Look, I shall say this once and for all. I am no fan of the right wing either, a lot of their policies are absolutely batshit. But if you keep taking the stances as "one tiny thing isn't exactly to the narrative, that must mean they're against everything I believe in" you're only going to end up pushing more and more away. Or in the very least I am going to stop listening to you as you clearly stopped actually listening to me long, long ago.
And if you can not be bothered to find the time to understand when to either explain something without a linkdump to more mouthpieces than to give your actual opinion other that "hurr durr me hate trump" then honestly I am struggling to find what good your opinion actually is on the issue.

Yes, terrorist bad, trump an arsehole, does that automatically link the two together? No.
Does that make it the only factor that makes a terrorist? No.
Does that make everything the fault of the one guy in the chair? No.

And you talk about being "informed" or not when a lot of the time it's about how people feel about the issues as well as the facts.
You know why I, personally, don't really give a shit about Trump as much as you do? Despite not living there, I got family in the USA, it's not as if I have 0 stakes in the country doing well or not. I still do not care as much because honestly, he's potentially out if your side can actually get it's shit together. And I am not talking about just applying itself for the base it has, but by reaching out across the aisle and taking from the Republican side those who are sided on that side for one, or two, issues or policies. I don't see any chance for co-operation. or even compromise on some issues, which might be necessary if you want to get rid of what you see as the larger evil.

Yeah, some policies are batshit, but some can be worked on.
Gun Legislation, not necessarily Control, but Legislation, can be worked on.
Health Care can be worked on.
Military expenditure and policy can be worked on.
Taxes can be worked on.

They all just need the right approach.
The Democrats need to switch their hammer for another tool as it requires finesse and honestly some trickery. Trickery that requires you to listen.

But, honestly that's just my opinion/feeling on the matter. I'm not even going to remotely pretend to back it up with pages of articles or op-ed's because it's just me.
Keep being hysterical about Trump's every breath if ya want, but now at least do it in a way that makes you stand out from the crowd.
Take it, leave it, I don't honestly give a shit any more.

[TTTX]

I don't have the time nor the crayons to detail to you how forms of Socialism are ways that the human race was able to survive, and how roads built before the concept of money were still built by people all agreeing to make a way to easier transport people and goods. Roads for use by the public have always been built by taxpayer money appropriated by a governmental body. That in and of itself is Democratic Socialism. Been called many names, but that's the basis of it.

No it's called infrastruktur.
society as we know wouldn't not exist with out good roads among other things.

I didn't give you an opinion, I gave you actual documented facts. From the time that they happened. By that very same thought process, would you argue that WW2 didn't happen?

WW2 happened, some of the details that happened in WW2 not really (like some of the properpanda).

Trump is giving these psychopaths a vocal approval of killing his opponents. He said as such during one of the fucking debates during the elections, and still does during his rallies.

The LT was nuts before, but trump gave him permission to act.

You mean like leftist twitter mobs who have gotten people fired and ruin their lives over stupid shit or antifa who had that violent rally some time ago or victimes who claimed to have been raped, but don't go to the police but on social media to ruin a person life without even have them going to trail?


Trump did no such thing, crazy people will act sooner or later, if not today than tomorrow or even years, he would probably have done even if Hillary was president today.

[Raga]

The Problem with the Term "Toxic Masculinity"

Apparently the term was coined by MRAs in the 1980s and not by feminists. I didn't know that.

[TTTX]

The Problem with the Term "Toxic Masculinity"

Apparently the term was coined by MRAs in the 1980s and not by feminists. I didn't know that.

words and meanings generally change with time with some words.

[Sinekein]

Good god, you're both nuts.

To expand on that quote from Mobius, while it's not a "I'm leaving 4eva" thing, I don't think I'll keep visiting the forum on a regular basis, which I'm sure several of you will be relieved or outright happy of.

I realized that...it basically brings me nothing. Well, not nothing. There is one person I have had extremely interesting and cordial discussions with (Raga, that's quite obvious), and I'll miss those. But they're not worth the pain of several other interactions.

The difference between a discussion or debate with Raga, or a debate or discussion with several others, is that in both cases subjective opinions (obviously) are being exchanged, but in one case those are informed, documented subjective opinions, while in the other, it's trying to exchange informed opinions against "feelings" or vague quotes pulled out of thin air, at best against one event turned into a global fact.

Basically, and unlike Mobius (I assume), or GAC in a different flavor, I don't enjoy at all screams and confrontation and the like. Those can be cathartic at times, but since at the moment my life is pretty nice, balanced and happy, I see absolutely zero reason to risk saying something that might launch yet another pointless exchange, or learning of the latest iteration of "someone says something stupid and all hell breaks loose on YT/Twitter/Reddit". There's no reason for me to vent frustrations or anger anymore because I don't really have any significant one, and I don't plan on forcefully dragging myself down, or learning about yet another shitty and pointless internet debate. To a degree, ignorance truly is bliss, and I can't remember the last time something I read there actually brought joy and happiness to my day (but I can remember times where what I read there really fucked it up).

It's not only this place. In general, I realize not spending so much time surfing does wonders for my mental health. This afternoon, I realized that since I started lowering my internet consumption, I didn't read a Trump tweet in weeks. Before that, every two or three days I happened upon some news or outrage related to what his blue bird says...most of it completely irrelevant and pointless, with a sole consequence of punctually making me angry, either by itself, or by reading reactions to it. I'm lucky enough not to be American right now, and I didn't fully realize how much of my sanity was chipped down by an overexposure to US politics in the last three years.

That's also why in retrospect I have so much fonder memories of my (relatively short) time in Clan Vakarian, than I have of Clan Zorah, back in the BSN times. The former was considerably more anger, or even rage-free. It doesn't mean that discussions or debates were irrelevant or uninteresting, just that they were constructive instead of snide, and that the occasional heat ended up naturally cooling down way before insults started to be thrown in. Because it's really the anger that seems to be associated with debates that I hate, I actually love contradictions and long debates with people I don't necessarily agree with. I just much prefer those to happen face to face, as on the net only a minority keeps it civil. And I know full well that I'm not a paragon in that regard, I"m relatively easily triggered too (realizing that is part of the reason I lowered my internet use).

Anyway, I'm not saying farewell, I might say hi in the general discussion from time to time (or in the books section if my exam corrections & time spent in Eorzea give me time to read again), but that should be it. Sorry Mob, as far as libtard socialists go, you're on your own now.

[Alienmorph]

To expand on that quote from Mobius, while it's not a "I'm leaving 4eva" thing, I don't think I'll keep visiting the forum on a regular basis, which I'm sure several of you will be relieved or outright happy of.

Not... really. I'd much rather be able to confront people I disagree with and see if I can hold my ground or need to rethink my position, than to live in a echo chamber where everyone agrees with me all the time and there's nothing new to learn.

Things got rather frustrating at times between the two of us, but you still strike me as a smart and well-intentioned person. I just... disagree on your proposed methods and some of your opinions (not gonna forget the "positive discrimination" argument anytime soon).

For what's worth, I have no reason or interest to hold a grudge. Take care of yourself, and I guess I'll see you around.

[Raga]

I also think part of it is just that for whatever reason this forum happens to skew really libertarian or with libertarian sympathizers. I could go on a long speech about why I think that's so but it doesn't really matter. The point is that a progressive type person walking in here probably ends up feeling a little bit like a mouse walking into a bar full of cats.

It's too bad because some variety definitely makes the conversations in this thread in particular more intellectually engaging, but hardly anybody has the emotional or mental stamina to throw themselves in front of a crowd of half a dozen people that strongly disagree with them day after day after day after day even if the disagreement remains civil, and it almost never does.

For me the libertarian safe space is actually refreshing because even though I'm not a libertarian (and economic libertarians are actually the people that come closest to what I would consider to be my enemies) I feel like you can broach any subject here without fearing that you're going to be doxxed or called a communist or a racist or whatever stupid thing that people do in most other arenas of political discussion (Mob & GAC aside). The politics thread is ironically one of the main reasons I come on these forums. Doing nothing but talking about pop culture stuff all day is deeply, deeply boring to me. Other than talking to my sister (who has kids and little time anymore), this is just about the only place where I feel like there's an even marginal chance of having something approximating an interesting conversation about some controversial topic.

Anyway, I'm rambling. In short, I'm sorry to see you go and if you ever do want to engage in this sort of conversation feel free to look me up.

[Mobius_118]

I just get real tired of people looking at the facts and going "nope, not for me. I prefer sweet, sweet lies."

I have posted actual truth, and get nothing out of it. I have been right about the direction of this current political climate, and get called a cuck liberal.

Do I enjoy the virtual yelling matches? No. Have I typed in all caps getting pissy about someone just saying hi? No. I'd prefer to have actual dialogue, but I see more and more people here preferring to have a virtual lobotomy.

[TTTX]

To expand on that quote from Mobius, while it's not a "I'm leaving 4eva" thing, I don't think I'll keep visiting the forum on a regular basis, which I'm sure several of you will be relieved or outright happy of.

Meh, not really, it's always nice to have someone to challenge your views gives more perspective.

I do perfer not discuss with you, because I'm terrible at writing (among other things) and that makes me come across well as terrible person, at least I think.

I just get real tired of people looking at the facts and going "nope, not for me. I prefer sweet, sweet lies."

I have posted actual truth, and get nothing out of it. I have been right about the direction of this current political climate, and get called a cuck liberal.

Do I enjoy the virtual yelling matches? No. Have I typed in all caps getting pissy about someone just saying hi? No. I'd prefer to have actual dialogue, but I see more and more people here preferring to have a virtual lobotomy.

You blamed Trump for a crazy person acts, if you want to hate Trump fine go ahead (He's a giant asshole), but at least hate him for actually dumb stuff he himself is responsible for (and crazy persons who are going to act anyway doesn't count).

[Mobius_118]

So far I haven't been wrong. I have been detailing exactly what he's doing without hyperbole, and what he encourages without hyperbole.

The crazy in question, the Coastie LT? His hit list was all Democratic politicians, reporters, and top it off with a bioattack. The very same Democrats and reporters who are critical of trump. The same people who trump has called for violence against. Look up his research topics. That tells you everything you need to know.

This isn't hard. He's a symptom of the cancer known as white supremacists, but trump gives him encouragement to follow through.

[TTTX]

So far I haven't been wrong. I have been detailing exactly what he's doing without hyperbole, and what he encourages without hyperbole.

The crazy in question, the Coastie LT? His hit list was all Democratic politicians, reporters, and top it off with a bioattack. The very same Democrats and reporters who are critical of trump. The same people who trump has called for violence against. Look up his research topics. That tells you everything you need to know.

This isn't hard. He's a symptom of the cancer known as white supremacists, but trump gives him encouragement to follow through.

And he isn't the first politician or president to do so.

So? the guy was already crazy and probably was loooooong before Trump even became president and people like that will always go off the rails eventually even if Trump hadn't become president he would still had tried to go on a killing spree, crazy people like that always do that.

Mob, you live in the west and in the west the majority of people are white (so obviously the majority of people who have money and power are going to be white in the west), if you go to Africa the majority are Africans and if you go to other places around the world there are different majorities and they just like the west they act like dicks, have their own racists who claim their race is superior, etc.

[Mazder]

So far I haven't been wrong. I have been detailing exactly what he's doing without hyperbole, and what he encourages without hyperbole.

The crazy in question, the Coastie LT? His hit list was all Democratic politicians, reporters, and top it off with a bioattack. The very same Democrats and reporters who are critical of trump. The same people who trump has called for violence against. Look up his research topics. That tells you everything you need to know.

This isn't hard. He's a symptom of the cancer known as white supremacists, but trump gives him encouragement to follow through.

So he was against the same people Trump was against.
So the entire left?
It's a pretty big target to claim correlation is causation.

But I do have to ask one thing.
If, and only if, what you claim is true, that one man, Trump, has caused an uptick in violence on his own with nothing else to contribute, even disregarding BLM riots and other such events from those on the left wing then how is it that the left, collectively, have not caused an uptick in good things in the world along the same, if not increased volume?

Especially as there are more left wing Senators, Congress people and Supreme Court Judges than there is one Donald Trump.
Their numbers Dwarf his, and their followers are the majority voting populace by your claim so how is it that Trump has managed to somehow not be drowned under their influences?
If we claim that one person's word creates actions in things not under their control then the Left Wing in your country should by all rights with the abilities claimed possible for people to have and their influence to be able to literally make great things happen to every citizen, their own piece of heaven.

[Augustei]

[TheodoricFriede]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez seems like a fucking psychopath.

Apparently, she wants to put moderate democrats on a 'list' so she can try to get them voted out. Nice to know that in 2 to 6 years my choice will be Alt-Left vs Alt-Right.

Or, what will perhaps be the most terrifying thing, Left and Right.

[TTTX]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez seems like a fucking psychopath.

Apparently, she wants to put moderate democrats on a 'list' so she can try to get them voted out. Nice to know that in 2 to 6 years my choice will be Alt-Left vs Alt-Right.

Or, what will perhaps be the most terrifying thing, Left and Right.

Plaque or cholera choose your diases and die.

[Raga]

snip

Well, it's CNN so that's part of your problem right there. The only news you can get on American standard TV that isn't complete crap is PBS Newshour.

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez seems like a fucking psychopath.

Apparently, she wants to put moderate democrats on a 'list' so she can try to get them voted out. Nice to know that in 2 to 6 years my choice will be Alt-Left vs Alt-Right.

Or, what will perhaps be the most terrifying thing, Left and Right.

She is best understood as a Communications manager for a company specifically tasked with social media outreach. She is 175% PR & advertising. Her actual policy expertise, academic or even half-assedly educated insight, or hands on experience in anything actually useful is basically 0. She is a reasonably good Democrat response to Trump in that respect.

Also, forced to chose between those, I will vote Alt-Right. If the whole system revolves on stupid tribal demographic essentialist lines, I'm certainly not going to vote against my own stupid tribal interests.

Except I can't. Sorry, Theo, you're Jewish, which means we get to be on everybody's shit list: the Neo-Nazis and the Louis Farrakhan/boycott Israel crowd. At least Jew hating will always be there as a potential source of common ground to keep the two sides from brawling in the streets. Western Civilization might be inherently white supremacist but that particular tradition needs to survive.

[/sarcasm]

[Raga]

I've been mentally wrestling with the issue that's popped up the last 10 or so years and assumed force after Obergerfell about whether or not religious institutions should be able to legally exclude gay or trans people from teaching, ordination, employment, congregational membership, or generally receiving services.

It's a weird spot for me because

1) I don't think trying to police consensual sexual activity or voluntary, cosmetic body alteration is something the government can realistically do without almost certainly alarming & unethical results. Moreover, I actually think the gay marriage victory was a constructive, *conservative* win
over the destructive, libertine sexual attitudes activists pushed for in the 1960s & 1970s and that dominated the gay rights movement up until the AIDs epidemic.

2) I'm not a religious fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, or otherwise rule-oriented hardliner who ascribes to a long list of "Thou shalt nots" that I think explains the world or morality

*However*

I am an old school theist and I despise Moralistic Therapeutic Deism with a white hot, fiery hatred. Give me an honest atheist with a developed moral philosophy he consistently applies to himself even though it's hard or a self-admitted nihilist over that "Do whatever you want and pretend it's divinely sanctioned" superficial nonsense any day. Religion is not therapy. People can fuck off with that.

*But* the current arguments aggressively arguing for ending celibacy for priests, accepting gay people for ordination, demanding religious organizations provide services or employment to gay or trans people and so on are overwhelmingly couched in the language of Moralistic Therapeutic Deism. And they add some teeth to the argument by equating such discrimination against sexual minorities with discrimination against racial minorities.

And given all the arguments about whether "race," "gender," and "sexual orientation" are in fact biological, cultural, or some amalgamation of both, there is no line of unambiguously correct argument where you can make claims like "Well, race is something you *are* and gayness is something you *do* so you can discriminate against gay behavior without discriminating against gay people."

The only logically and morally consistent positions to take are either "churches can discriminate against anybody for any reason whatever" or "civil rules about discrimination also apply to churches."

I didn't actually realize that the first position is explicitly the law and moreover it was a recent, unanimous Supreme Court decision. I think a lot of talking heads don't realize this and they employ waffling civil rights based language because of it. I certainly didn't realize it.

[Vol]

@Sine: Well, I'm sorry to hear that, Sine. We are probably diametric opposites on most matters, but I enjoy having a relatively civil place for people to freely express their beliefs. There are precious few of them. But I cannot force anyone to do so, so hey, thanks for contributing what you did.

@Re - General bent: I actually see this place as a fairly good smattering of the political compass, albeit mostly close to the center, with a rough lean to leftist authoritarianism, outside of specifically free speech.

@Raga: Ah, so there's a term for that psuedo-belief. It's been bugging me for a while trying to describe what I see as clearly some sort of spiritual belief that people call one of the big 3, but really isn't. "Oh, I believe in Jesus, but also fairies and ghosts and karma and chakra and astrology!"

I would argue that in any way using state force to make people associate who do not want to is immoral, and the only "good" outcome is if the act of dissociation is more so, then it is the lesser evil to integrate. Such as demanding hospitals and supermarkets admit all.

Edit: Took out most of this paragraph, came out too blunt and mean.

I haven't seen much of this applied to religion though. And certainly not to Muslims, Jews, and any of the non-Abrahamic religions. From what I've heard, Christianity has been more concerned with liberalizing itself to get their numbers up, to say nothing of the number of people who called themselves Christians, but are clearly "Moralistically Therapeutic Deists" in disguise.

[DarkStorm]

-clip-

I dont blame you, still it was nice to see some other varying opinions.

[Vol]

https://apnews.com/41ea4c23629d4aa3a2a66ccde545c0f5

The silver lining to this would be that turnabout is fair play, and when the Dems take their turn on the throne, massive fishing expeditions to punish everyone around the leader are launched and become the norm. The dysfunction would get worse. But the GOP have no balls, so, you know.

[Raga]

From what I've heard, Christianity has been more concerned with liberalizing itself to get their numbers up, to say nothing of the number of people who called themselves Christians, but are clearly "Moralistically Therapeutic Deists" in disguise.

Sure, that's precisely what I'm addressing. But there are also plenty of people who aren't religious who for whatever reason feel the need to argue on these lines as well. Some of those are the traditional "tax the churches/drive religion underground" militant atheists that have been around for 150 years, but I'd actually argue these have been driven away from the public sphere for the most part. (They don't just target Christians but also Muslims and, you know, "Islamophobia.") They were the ones most likely to employ an aggressive civil rights based argument.

The external MTDs or whatever you want to call them are ones who see in New Testament Christianity and especially with some excised chunks of sayings by Jesus (It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle...) a convenient way of equating religion with social justice and repurposing all of the infrastructure of the churches toward that end.

All of them use the watery civil rights language at times though.

The militant atheists were just the only ones who are logically and morally consistent and thus the only ones worth even considering on a purely intellectual level. The watery civil rights language mated with "Jesus=social justice" and "exclusion hurts people's feelings" is meanwhile completely inane, but also much more effective in a marketing sense.

[Vol]

Where are you seeing these people making these arguments? Because while I don't doubt they exist, I'm far more intimately familiar with the virulent atheists who base their faith entirely on opposing Christianity.

It seems like some people, maybe a lot, are presented with beliefs at an early age. Parents, school, wherever. And they never examine or question it, but at some point an external force does, and that makes them double down forever in zealots. We don't have debates on the rationale behind big issues of the day because there's no foundation for these "thought leaders" to argue them. It's all elementary school buzz phrases, and the edgy opposite, that stuck and became theirs to defend because someone dared to question it. A lot of things in life seem to work that way, hollow core.

[Raga]

Where are you seeing these people making these arguments?

Most of them are lapsed former Catholics and High Protestants who never bothered to actually go about really secularizing. They are "culturally" Catholic or Methodist or Anglican or whatever. They see 0 conflict in being agnostic and having a church wedding.

A decently high number of them pull some "I was raised Catholic" attempt at bonafides to argue their points in the New York Times or WaPo or whatever. I could dig up some particular articles but they really are dime a dozen.

They are different from the internal MTDs who are the kind of odd ducks who stealthily get ordained as a priest or a minister, then come out as gay or trans or whatever and demand they be recognized. Or gay couples who want to show up at Southern Baptist congregations and carry on getting Communion or whatever as if nothing is amiss.

It seems like some people, maybe a lot, are presented with beliefs at an early age. Parents, school, wherever. And they never examine or question it

It's because people don't engage in catechesis anymore (and I don't mean specifically Catholic catechism). People teach their kids rituals but they almost never teach them the metaphysical framework that explains what the rituals mean or why they are important. Most people no longer understand their own traditions: religious, political, ethnic, or otherwise.

[FrozenShadow]

I don't know if I should shake head, faceplam or belly laugh at this Brexit debacle. If Trump and his actions had made US a laughing matter in the world, then this Brexit issue doing the same to UK.

I mean seriously, this whole thing now come to a point, where a totally a new referendum about Brexit is quite possible. The only thing that would make this whole matter even more tragicomic is that Britain do make a new referendum and then majority will vote for staying in EU and forgetting this whole Brexit mess.

Really, I am starting to wonder, if there is so law or rule in UK that allows royalties to take the decision making power back. After all, it seems that the current parliament can't make up their mind or get things done in this particular issue.

[Mazder]

Really, I am starting to wonder, if there is so law or rule in UK that allows royalties to take the decision making power back. After all, it seems that the current parliament can't make up their mind or get things done in this particular issue.

There was.
Elizabeth II, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of her other realms and territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith, no longer has the right to dissolve Parliament. The only time it's dissolved is in the 25 days leading up to a general election cycle, or during a successful vote of no confidence triggering a general election.
This is made possible by the Fixed Terms Parliament Act 2011.
This can only be repealed by the government.

So as a solution to Brexit, it's impossible.
Unless in the next few days it's called for and voted through by some miracle to revert everything back to how it was before 2011's Act and gives the power back to the Queen.