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Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

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TTTX
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 8th, 2019, 6:29 pm

Alienmorph wrote:It's just fucking depressing. We've spent the last 2 or 3 years being lambasted by shills and wannabee journalists trying to convice us that "you can't objectively criticize creative content... you just WANT to be negative!" and since that didn't obviously work too well, now we're at the point where thei're starting to try to pass criticism as an hatespeech equivalent. Ffs.

I keep thinking I should just go live in some small town in the middle of nowhere, and stop caring about whatever bullshit western media is farting at us every day, whenever I see this sort of crap.

I wouldn't be surprised this new way of doing thing won't work either as more and more people listens to real youtubers (or other more believable people) and not those people who try to silence them.

Even if the SJW crowd won well I'll use this this speech made by G'kar in Babylon 5.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJmuHNDcXLQ
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 8th, 2019, 6:37 pm

Okay... now you just made me smile.

See? That's what good stories do, and why criticizing bad ones matters.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 8th, 2019, 6:53 pm

Alienmorph wrote:Okay... now you just made me smile.

See? That's what good stories do, and why criticizing bad ones matters.

Well I'm glad I made you smile. :)

Well we learned that lesson when ME3 came out or at least I did.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 8th, 2019, 7:07 pm

OhGod... imagine if ME3 came out today, and received the same amount of negative feedbacks.

"You're all just homofobic manbabies who want to hate on this game!!111!!1"

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 9th, 2019, 4:53 am

Alienmorph wrote:OhGod... imagine if ME3 came out today, and received the same amount of negative feedbacks.

"You're all just homofobic manbabies who want to hate on this game!!111!!1"

Yeah....

that's a scary thing to think about.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 9th, 2019, 2:05 pm

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 9th, 2019, 3:39 pm

Alienmorph wrote:I keep thinking I should just go live in some small town in the middle of nowhere, and stop caring about whatever bullshit western media is farting at us every day, whenever I see this sort of crap.


It's possible to ignore video games media. If you watch promotional content with chats turned off, and ignore all reaction posts/reviews/reaction to reviews, you can end up with your own untainted opinion on a game.

I know I'll buy Fire Emblem Three Houses, and the only thing I've seen of it is what Nintendo showed in trailers. I haven't tracked leaks, haven't watched journalist X saying how excited he is, or journalist Y explaining that it's gone downhill since the Blazing Blade, or Youtuber Z complaining that this or that character looks unoriginal, or Youtuber Z2 whining about the lack of gender equality or an outfit that's too revealing, ot Youtuber Z3 saying that civilization is doomed because there is going to be a gay romance somewhere.

So for me it just looks like Fire Emblem Hogwarts. Maybe there's a lot of excitement, maybe there is a total shitstorm going on, maybe everyone says it's going to suck - in any event, I don't know about it, and yet I stay informed about the game.

Critics from the medias, or gaming youtubers, are actually completely unnecessary. But they both profit from whatever big debate, shitstorm or open war is going on because it makes them look like you can't look past them to enjoy gaming...but you definitely can. When you log on your game for the first time, it is absolutely possible to not have read/watched any of their content.

It's been a while since CZ, you probably have watched game trailers for, what, 10 years now? I am pretty sure you are able to take an educated decision regarding the quality of a game without requiring someone (from the media, youtube or anywhere else) having to explain it to you.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 9th, 2019, 4:16 pm

Sinekein wrote:It's possible to ignore video games media. If you watch promotional content with chats turned off, and ignore all reaction posts/reviews/reaction to reviews, you can end up with your own untainted opinion on a game.

I know I'll buy Fire Emblem Three Houses, and the only thing I've seen of it is what Nintendo showed in trailers. I haven't tracked leaks, haven't watched journalist X saying how excited he is, or journalist Y explaining that it's gone downhill since the Blazing Blade, or Youtuber Z complaining that this or that character looks unoriginal, or Youtuber Z2 whining about the lack of gender equality or an outfit that's too revealing, ot Youtuber Z3 saying that civilization is doomed because there is going to be a gay romance somewhere.

So for me it just looks like Fire Emblem Hogwarts. Maybe there's a lot of excitement, maybe there is a total shitstorm going on, maybe everyone says it's going to suck - in any event, I don't know about it, and yet I stay informed about the game.

Critics from the medias, or gaming youtubers, are actually completely unnecessary. But they both profit from whatever big debate, shitstorm or open war is going on because it makes them look like you can't look past them to enjoy gaming...but you definitely can. When you log on your game for the first time, it is absolutely possible to not have read/watched any of their content.

It's been a while since CZ, you probably have watched game trailers for, what, 10 years now? I am pretty sure you are able to take an educated decision regarding the quality of a game without requiring someone (from the media, youtube or anywhere else) having to explain it to you.

Well here is some of the problems with that kind of view.

Like trailers and companies can outright lie as seen with Anthem and videogame journalists from major companies have a lot influence over games at least at the moment (and of course it's not always a good thing considering current social politics at the moment among other things).

But videogame journalist are necessary not because of reviewing games and such stuff, but also tell us when the companies are doing some shady stuff and treating their staff as garbage which we have seen a lot in these last few years.

Hell we wouldn't know how bad it is over at BW now if it wasn't because of a certain gaming journalist.

They have their place and we do need them for better or worse.

I should probably go into more detail and written this post a bit better, but I'm not Raga and writing isn't something I'm good at, so I'll leave it that.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 9th, 2019, 4:33 pm

Sinekein wrote:It's possible to ignore video games media. If you watch promotional content with chats turned off, and ignore all reaction posts/reviews/reaction to reviews, you can end up with your own untainted opinion on a game.

I know I'll buy Fire Emblem Three Houses, and the only thing I've seen of it is what Nintendo showed in trailers. I haven't tracked leaks, haven't watched journalist X saying how excited he is, or journalist Y explaining that it's gone downhill since the Blazing Blade, or Youtuber Z complaining that this or that character looks unoriginal, or Youtuber Z2 whining about the lack of gender equality or an outfit that's too revealing, ot Youtuber Z3 saying that civilization is doomed because there is going to be a gay romance somewhere.

So for me it just looks like Fire Emblem Hogwarts. Maybe there's a lot of excitement, maybe there is a total shitstorm going on, maybe everyone says it's going to suck - in any event, I don't know about it, and yet I stay informed about the game.

Critics from the medias, or gaming youtubers, are actually completely unnecessary. But they both profit from whatever big debate, shitstorm or open war is going on because it makes them look like you can't look past them to enjoy gaming...but you definitely can. When you log on your game for the first time, it is absolutely possible to not have read/watched any of their content.

It's been a while since CZ, you probably have watched game trailers for, what, 10 years now? I am pretty sure you are able to take an educated decision regarding the quality of a game without requiring someone (from the media, youtube or anywhere else) having to explain it to you.

While true, imagine how fucked the world would be if people used this approach with other news outlets.
Oh....wait.

Seriously though, wanting better journalism/games coverage vs "turning off bad chats/media sites" are two very different aspects.
I mean, expecting the coverage to be better and wanting it to be better so everyone can have easy access to basic decent info on the games, business practices of their studios and aspects which help fund said industry is not something that should really be sniffed at as it makes all consumers a more informed and honest base for the industry.

Plus while it's okay to get the raw info from the source that doesn't necessarily mean it's okay to ignore the games media as a whole.
If the games media was ignored shitty practices like Lootboxes and paid gambling mechanics and predatory schemes would be absolutely more common as not only EA/Ubisoft/whomever else is employing those practices are big enough to dish out their info themselves but they're also big enough to quickly backtrack and cover up their steps if there isn't a big reveal.backlash from a community.

There are some things I can't get from simply watching trailers that I, as a consumer, definitely want to know about.
I want to know about which studios are treating their employees like shit so I don't purchase their games. I want to know which studios don't support certain rights of individuals (if any do) so I don't buy their games. I want to know of potential development issues/in-studio issues that might affect a game I am excited for.

Also "gaming youtubers/critics" aren't always just plain bad. One of the more professional ones was Total Biscuit/John Bain and he was never not "some guy on the internet". Some quality can exist.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 9th, 2019, 4:35 pm

TTTX wrote:Like trailers and companies can outright lie as seen with Anthem and videogame journalists from major companies have a lot influence over games at least at the moment (and of course it's not always a good thing considering current social politics at the moment among other things).

I mean, journalists and youtubers can be bought out too.
I mean, review copies anyone?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 9th, 2019, 4:38 pm

Mazder wrote:I mean, journalists and youtubers can be bought out too.
I mean, review copies anyone?

True.
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 9th, 2019, 5:45 pm

Mazder wrote:Seriously though, wanting better journalism/games coverage vs "turning off bad chats/media sites" are two very different aspects.
I mean, expecting the coverage to be better and wanting it to be better so everyone can have easy access to basic decent info on the games, business practices of their studios and aspects which help fund said industry is not something that should really be sniffed at as it makes all consumers a more informed and honest base for the industry.

Plus while it's okay to get the raw info from the source that doesn't necessarily mean it's okay to ignore the games media as a whole.
If the games media was ignored shitty practices like Lootboxes and paid gambling mechanics and predatory schemes would be absolutely more common as not only EA/Ubisoft/whomever else is employing those practices are big enough to dish out their info themselves but they're also big enough to quickly backtrack and cover up their steps if there isn't a big reveal.backlash from a community.

There are some things I can't get from simply watching trailers that I, as a consumer, definitely want to know about.
I want to know about which studios are treating their employees like shit so I don't purchase their games. I want to know which studios don't support certain rights of individuals (if any do) so I don't buy their games. I want to know of potential development issues/in-studio issues that might affect a game I am excited for.

Also "gaming youtubers/critics" aren't always just plain bad. One of the more professional ones was Total Biscuit/John Bain and he was never not "some guy on the internet". Some quality can exist.


There is a distinction between a critic and a media piece on gaming. The former is an opinion piece on a game. The second is not necessarily an opinion piece, it can simply be a report on facts that have been gathered or some announcements put into perspective. There is no such thing as "true objectivity", but journalist reports can be close to that.

Imagine a company that is used to delaying its games for years announcing that its next one will be released in May 2020.

A journalist can post an article on the announcement, while expanding on what it means (what the game is, what the previous opuses were if they exist, who the lead designer is, what other games in the genre exist), while also adding that the company has a habit of being super late. It won't be entirely objective because the last comment might indicate that the journalist has an opinion on delaying your releases - depending on how it's phrased, it can be good or bad. However, this type of article does not bring controversy.

Most controversies seem to stem from interactions regarding reviews, and people loving/hating a given game. Those are always opinion pieces, there is no absolutely objective measure of quality for a game. I think those can be ignored if you want to. At some point, if you have played for long enough, you have enough experience to know if, after an announcement, the company can be entirely trusted or not.

So all you mentioned on "wanting to know", you can know without reading reviews. Whether company A promotes gender equality, company B is led by a sexual harasser, or company C loves layoffs, has little to do with the final quality of their product. A few years back EA was voted the most inclusive company for LGBT people. Which doesn't mean that they aren't using super shady business practices.

And I know there are decent or good gaming reviewers - I follow a French one named Joueur du Grenier (but he really stays out of controversy, and reviewing is far from his main activity, or more accurately new games reviewing isn't). However, if overall watching youtubers and reading reviews, and subsequently following the rather toxic interactions in the community, is causing you only misery, then I think you can really cut yourself from all the ruckus without having to renounce your hobby, or even lowering your enjoyment.

TTTX wrote:Well here is some of the problems with that kind of view.

Like trailers and companies can outright lie as seen with Anthem and videogame journalists from major companies have a lot influence over games at least at the moment (and of course it's not always a good thing considering current social politics at the moment among other things).

But videogame journalist are necessary not because of reviewing games and such stuff, but also tell us when the companies are doing some shady stuff and treating their staff as garbage which we have seen a lot in these last few years.

Hell we wouldn't know how bad it is over at BW now if it wasn't because of a certain gaming journalist.

They have their place and we do need them for better or worse.


Indeed, I don't mean that companies should be trusted.

But I dont think Alien is an uninformed newbie when it comes to Video Games. Anthem came from EA, a company that has "a baggage". I doubt anyone remotely knowledgeable about video games in general ignores the issues with EA, so you can watch a trailer and guess that something might be off.

Nintendo on the other hand tends to produce quality and to seldom take its users for idiots, hence why I think I can go into FE3H without someone having to translate for me what the content means.

As for gaming journalists, I don't think they are unnecessary, but their reviews are. Reviews are quintessential opinion pieces, they are subjective by their very essence.

However, a piece on company X treating its employees like garbage, or the new microtransaction system used by company Y, does not have to be an opinion piece, it can be a simple statement of facts gathered by the journalist, one that does not come from his own opinion on said company - with the reader deciding whether what has been reported should color its opinion on the company.

But the "debates" that look like "It's great! - No it sucks. -No u. - You're boought. -You're a hater." you can go without knowing really. Those can be useful initially when you have no idea about the practices of various companies, but once you do and you have the experience to make your own judgment, reviewers and youtubers really shouldn't be required in your gaming life. At least in my opinion.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 9th, 2019, 6:26 pm

Sinekein wrote:There is a distinction between a critic and a media piece on gaming. The former is an opinion piece on a game. The second is not necessarily an opinion piece, it can simply be a report on facts that have been gathered or some announcements put into perspective. There is no such thing as "true objectivity", but journalist reports can be close to that.

Imagine a company that is used to delaying its games for years announcing that its next one will be released in May 2020.

A journalist can post an article on the announcement, while expanding on what it means (what the game is, what the previous opuses were if they exist, who the lead designer is, what other games in the genre exist), while also adding that the company has a habit of being super late. It won't be entirely objective because the last comment might indicate that the journalist has an opinion on delaying your releases - depending on how it's phrased, it can be good or bad. However, this type of article does not bring controversy.

Most controversies seem to stem from interactions regarding reviews, and people loving/hating a given game. Those are always opinion pieces, there is no absolutely objective measure of quality for a game. I think those can be ignored if you want to. At some point, if you have played for long enough, you have enough experience to know if, after an announcement, the company can be entirely trusted or not.

So all you mentioned on "wanting to know", you can know without reading reviews. Whether company A promotes gender equality, company B is led by a sexual harasser, or company C loves layoffs, has little to do with the final quality of their product. A few years back EA was voted the most inclusive company for LGBT people. Which doesn't mean that they aren't using super shady business practices.

And I know there are decent or good gaming reviewers - I follow a French one named Joueur du Grenier (but he really stays out of controversy, and reviewing is far from his main activity, or more accurately new games reviewing isn't). However, if overall watching youtubers and reading reviews, and subsequently following the rather toxic interactions in the community, is causing you only misery, then I think you can really cut yourself from all the ruckus without having to renounce your hobby, or even lowering your enjoyment.

True, yet critics are necessary to gauge some level of fan appeal other than sales figures and copies sold, etc.
Without people spouting their opinion a game that sold well, but was terrible and was hated, can still be seen as a success. Yeah you may have reporters commenting on the amount sold and refunded but that is not the same as having thousands of angry fans giving their opinion, or a few youtubers with large enough followings giving bad opinions. Bad news, while still news, is necessary to the news around gaming as a whole.
Not listening to those is optional, sure, but you can't ignore the weight they have.

Compare a news reporting on an atrocity vs a march and protests against and atrocity. Yeah one is an informative report of the facts but the marches and protests might actually get something done about the bad things occurring. The same applies to the games journalism side when youtubers and critics are concerned.

Also there is a given fact that people don't necessarily consume news by just reading articles and stuff in a very "old-news" fashion. People might read an article or they might read a summary or listen/watch someone read it aloud and summarise it. That's valid.

Again, wanting to know is 100% essential. Critics are not only critics for the reviews on games but for the reviews of the companies themselves.
One can be a critic of a company and it's practices.
Like your example says, EA being one of the best LGBT+ publishers but still had terrible business practices, such business practices might not being known about if all their news given to the media is all on their LGBT+ support and business side relations were kept to a minimal or were drowned out by the over-saturation of pro-LGBT+ news.

While true a lot of people also find a connection to the wider community through the people they follow. Fan circles are usually big drivers of public opinion and if those circles were to die off it'd be just like any other news media.
Boring, under-staffed/under-payed, prone to corporate bullshit and hung out to dry for advertisers.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 10th, 2019, 2:12 am

Sinekein wrote:As for gaming journalists, I don't think they are unnecessary, but their reviews are. Reviews are quintessential opinion pieces, they are subjective by their very essence.


*A* review is this, but reviews in aggregate can tell you something useful. If some game I was thinking about buying ends up with like a 40% aggregate review, I'm probably going to avoid it. That's not to say I might not enjoy it anyway, but that's a big gamble with $60 when there is other stuff I'm interested in that is scoring much higher.

Though to be fair, this doesn't really undermine the point that you can avoid the video game outrage machine and still get these scores. I pretty much completely avoid it by just looking at aggregate scores and/or asking the opinion of RL people who have opinions I trust or know what kind of games I like.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 10th, 2019, 5:03 am

Raga wrote:
Sinekein wrote:As for gaming journalists, I don't think they are unnecessary, but their reviews are. Reviews are quintessential opinion pieces, they are subjective by their very essence.


*A* review is this, but reviews in aggregate can tell you something useful. If some game I was thinking about buying ends up with like a 40% aggregate review, I'm probably going to avoid it. That's not to say I might not enjoy it anyway, but that's a big gamble with $60 when there is other stuff I'm interested in that is scoring much higher.

Though to be fair, this doesn't really undermine the point that you can avoid the video game outrage machine and still get these scores. I pretty much completely avoid it by just looking at aggregate scores and/or asking the opinion of RL people who have opinions I trust or know what kind of games I like.

Again, all true.
But aggregate scores can only tell you something is bad.
They can't tell you why it's bad. Only the more in depth reviews/opinion pieces will be able to do so, or at least give speculation as to why it might be so.
Without that all you have is a number.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 10th, 2019, 5:26 am

Yeah, I just don't trust youtubers or journos that got themselves into pointless debates. Because it incites watchers or readers to "pick a side" and end up with a cult mentality of "X is wrong, Y is right". Just like politics.

And I'm especially wary of youtubers because the number of views or followers or subscribers is what describes their social status. So they cannot really post "unpopular opinions" for their fanbases, else they will lose it. So many pander to their audience and give it what it wants to see, makinf them even more, in a way, fanatical.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 10th, 2019, 5:35 am

Mazder wrote:Again, all true.
But aggregate scores can only tell you something is bad.
They can't tell you why it's bad. Only the more in depth reviews/opinion pieces will be able to do so, or at least give speculation as to why it might be so.
Without that all you have is a number.


Sure, but at that point, does it even matter why it's bad? All I want to know is whether or not I should buy it. The number of ways it could be awful are essentially infinite. All I need to know is the number.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 10th, 2019, 5:54 am

Raga wrote:
Sure, but at that point, does it even matter why it's bad? All I want to know is whether or not I should buy it. The number of ways it could be awful are essentially infinite. All I need to know is the number.

I mean if you want to know about a studio and it's business practices then, yeah.
People might be boycotting a game due to a studio's stance on rights for their employees, making aggregate scores plummet. The game might actually be good, but due to a protest it's given a negative review.
If all you're doing is looking at the aggregate score then you'd have a fair reason to believe that game is bad when it may not be the case.

Sinekein wrote:Yeah, I just don't trust youtubers or journos that got themselves into pointless debates. Because it incites watchers or readers to "pick a side" and end up with a cult mentality of "X is wrong, Y is right". Just like politics.

And I'm especially wary of youtubers because the number of views or followers or subscribers is what describes their social status. So they cannot really post "unpopular opinions" for their fanbases, else they will lose it. So many pander to their audience and give it what it wants to see, makinf them even more, in a way, fanatical.

True, which is why, like politics, you pick from both sides and judge for yourself.
If you ignore both then you're less informed of public opinion in both regards to hate or love of the product.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 10th, 2019, 6:08 am

If a debate is fabricated, what is the point in giving attention to it?

You don't get better informed by learning about a useless, pointless internet shitstorm. It is just a waste of time, not something that nurtures your mind. Especially since internet debates are almost never not toxic in some way, they seldom are well-informed, well-argumentates controversies.

Also, since hate and love are by essence personal feelings, being informed on what they should be is intrinsically wrong. On the contrary, if you get "information" on whether you should love or hate something, it removes some of your personal input and replaces it with what someone else thinks.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 10th, 2019, 6:10 am

Mazder wrote:I mean if you want to know about a studio and it's business practices then, yeah.
People might be boycotting a game due to a studio's stance on rights for their employees, making aggregate scores plummet. The game might actually be good, but due to a protest it's given a negative review.
If all you're doing is looking at the aggregate score then you'd have a fair reason to believe that game is bad when it may not be the case.


That's usually reflected in the critic aggregate score and the user aggregate score being wildly divergent. If those don't match, you usually know something dodgy is going on and you might need to investigate farther. And even then, the level of divergence usually tells you precisely what's going on.

80% critic and like 25% user? Then almost assuredly some fanboys got their knickers in a twist about some SJW thing or other in the game and dogpiled the reviews and the media defensively overreacts pretending the game is the best thing since sliced bread. Most likely takeaway? Game is adequate to good with maybe some unfortunate preachiness here or there.

30% critic and 80% user? Game is probably some kind of blow-it-up funfest or else fun but completely non innovative, and reviewers can't let go of their pretentious, artsy-fartsy side to just chill and have unassuming fun. Most likely takeaway? Stay away if you want artsy-fartsy, have at if you just want to have fun.

But if it's panned by both? Yea, nothing to see here. The game probably just stinks. And that's much more often the case with aggregate reviews than is wild divergence.

Same with movie reviews or book reviews.

Inasmuch as I need flesh put on the bones of such aggregates, I prefer going to forums and just talking to other fans over watching assorted talking heads.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 10th, 2019, 2:31 pm

Sinekein wrote:If a debate is fabricated, what is the point in giving attention to it?

You don't get better informed by learning about a useless, pointless internet shitstorm. It is just a waste of time, not something that nurtures your mind. Especially since internet debates are almost never not toxic in some way, they seldom are well-informed, well-argumentates controversies.

Also, since hate and love are by essence personal feelings, being informed on what they should be is intrinsically wrong. On the contrary, if you get "information" on whether you should love or hate something, it removes some of your personal input and replaces it with what someone else thinks.

If you're not following things closely, or even remotely the only way you find out might be because of an online shitstorm.

Yeah if I operate as a robot, sure. Most people go by emotion with everything, even information sourcing for hobbies. They'll stick to websites they know or people they know, hell I bet there are some journos you like but you can't place exactly why. And if there isn't then you're the first person I've met who can follow something with 100% objectivity.
If you're even a little bit interested in something you're biased towards love or hate in some fashion so having your input/info based on it is kinda inescapable.
You see a lot of people hating on something you're less likely to look at it yourself. You see something a lot of people are praising you're more likely to have a look. That's just human nature. If you then look and agree you're part of the group, if you then look and hate you're also part of the group. Even if you don't "take part" you're still involved.

Raga wrote:That's usually reflected in the critic aggregate score and the user aggregate score being wildly divergent. If those don't match, you usually know something dodgy is going on and you might need to investigate farther. And even then, the level of divergence usually tells you precisely what's going on.

80% critic and like 25% user? Then almost assuredly some fanboys got their knickers in a twist about some SJW thing or other in the game and dogpiled the reviews and the media defensively overreacts pretending the game is the best thing since sliced bread. Most likely takeaway? Game is adequate to good with maybe some unfortunate preachiness here or there.

30% critic and 80% user? Game is probably some kind of blow-it-up funfest or else fun but completely non innovative, and reviewers can't let go of their pretentious, artsy-fartsy side to just chill and have unassuming fun. Most likely takeaway? Stay away if you want artsy-fartsy, have at if you just want to have fun.

But if it's panned by both? Yea, nothing to see here. The game probably just stinks. And that's much more often the case with aggregate reviews than is wild divergence.

Same with movie reviews or book reviews.

Inasmuch as I need flesh put on the bones of such aggregates, I prefer going to forums and just talking to other fans over watching assorted talking heads.

Yeah but that only depends on who you're "allowed" to call as a critic.
Some fuck-head on Kotaku is seen as more of a critic than some fuck-head on youtube. Why? Literally no difference between opinion/fact/stance but one would be waved off as "just some youtuber" and therefore slotted into user scores.
You're not following/allowing the "some youtuber" scores/opinions then you're slashing the user reviews/scores before you've even begun.

So, in my eyes, just the numbers alone are only important if those you deem as the "critic" side are important enough to listen to.
I mean, if a game is panned for not being innovative, artsy, or whatever and it receives a bad score, yet loads of people love it, is it a bad game?
Fans would say yes while those you're using as a litmus test for "quality" are saying no.
So who's opinion is more important, the fans or the critic?
If these youtubers are still slotted into the "fans" category then in that example the fans have it, and are therefore more important.

Plus let us not forget people get news a lot faster via entertainment than actual news. Even if that entertainment is chatting with mates.
I mean, unless you're at that moment in life where you wake up and turn on the news.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 10th, 2019, 5:19 pm

Mazder wrote:If you're even a little bit interested in something you're biased towards love or hate in some fashion so having your input/info based on it is kinda inescapable.
You see a lot of people hating on something you're less likely to look at it yourself. You see something a lot of people are praising you're more likely to have a look. That's just human nature. If you then look and agree you're part of the group, if you then look and hate you're also part of the group. Even if you don't "take part" you're still involved.


All of this, as Raga mentioned, can be known by simply looking at an aggregator. Zero reason to dive into ugly internet debates.

And yes by playing games, I am part of a "group" called "people who play video games". Yet I can be that without belonging to "people who pointlessly and needlessly bicked about video games", which is a rather toxic subgroup I really want nothing to do with.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 10th, 2019, 5:37 pm

Mazder wrote:So who's opinion is more important, the fans or the critic?


I intentionally didn't specify this because they both matter and they both tell you something useful, albeit different, about the game. However, the only time the difference matters is when there is major divergence in the aggregate numbers as I already laid out. In the overwhelming majority of cases, there is no substantive divergence.

And critics aren't critics because of how important or popular they are. They are "official" critics because of what sort of organization they work for. If you aren't subjected to some kind of editorial process, you aren't an "official" critic. That's not making any kind of statement about their relative importance compared to fan reviews or popular freelancer reviews, but it is a difference of kind and not just of degree. Fan reviewer #7456 and Youtuber talker #7892 can say whatever they like because they want to say it. Journalist critic cannot. He has to go through an editorial process first.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 10th, 2019, 6:18 pm

Raga wrote:And critics aren't critics because of how important or popular they are. They are "official" critics because of what sort of organization they work for. If you aren't subjected to some kind of editorial process, you aren't an "official" critic. That's not making any kind of statement about their relative importance compared to fan reviews or popular freelancer reviews, but it is a difference of kind and not just of degree. Fan reviewer #7456 and Youtuber talker #7892 can say whatever they like because they want to say it. Journalist critic cannot. He has to go through an editorial process first.

Forgive me if I am wrong in this but wouldn't belonging to a specific organisation imply that importance?
Being self published vs working for a publisher is a large difference in if your words have weight behind them to matter. That editorial process not only means that any actual opinion is not 100% their own, it's what they've been allowed to publish about their opinion. Whether or not the whole opinion makes it through doesn't necessarily matter it's the fact that it's filtered that makes things feel more important. Said editorial process/team/company published for can just as easily be bought out, so why is weight given to "official" critics when they're honestly no different in the dance of opinions, especially online.
Does one person's word mean more than another because a biased editor/editorial team didn't want them to say as much bad things about a game vs youtuber #217?
I'd argue that for youtubers their editors are their audience. If they something unpopular they get edited out by loss of viewership, if it's severe enough they lose their userbase to the point of not being listened to any more.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » June 12th, 2019, 6:31 am

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... ar-AACJ07t

Fucking lunacy. Government actively working against its people trying to fix the problems it refuses to address.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 12th, 2019, 12:52 pm

It looks like Elizabeth Warren has climbed up in the polls again and is more or less contending with Sanders for the "uber economic progressive" position, which looks to be the thing which is selling best after "standard neoliberal."

For the most part, I'm pleased with this. Neoliberal vs economic progressive is a decent place to be. It's certainly preferable to neoliberal vs ravening social progressive, which would almost assuredly push me to vote for Trump or abstain altogether.

I still like Warren despite her general tendency to shoot herself in the foot every few months and generally be willfully oblivious about little most voters care about metrics and complicated plans.

We'll see how it goes.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » June 12th, 2019, 5:31 pm

Really? So what's the rough breakdown for Sanders/Biden/Warren voterwise?

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 13th, 2019, 9:26 am

Vol wrote:Really? So what's the rough breakdown for Sanders/Biden/Warren voterwise?


Biden 30-40%, Sanders and Warren each at 15ish%, Buttigieg (another neoliberal) handing around 5-12%. Others consistently below 10%.

If you assume the people who vote for Warren will vote for Sanders and vice versa, and the people who will vote for Biden will vote for Buttigieg and vice versa, it's like 40% leaning neoliberal, 35% leaning uber economic progressive, and presumably only the leavings fed up with "old white people" or whatever.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 13th, 2019, 1:43 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gynQZtEFzEs

So apparently there are already backlash to Cyberpunk 2077 by someone who saw the closed demo.

Decided to post this here just in case this turns into a debate.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Joblom » June 14th, 2019, 8:11 am

Raga wrote:"Judeo-Christian heritage" and such. Or else, they have to fall back on biological arguments: "white people are better because biology" but this is *precisely* white supremacism.


(No, I'm not arguing that any attempt to resist cultural intrusion/mixing via violence is intrinsically illegitimate. That discussion would actually be an interesting one to have. It's a problem I've thought about in constituent parts while considering other things, but I don't know that I've ever really considered it at that top down level).

Now Judeo-Christian... there is a can of worms. Gets to the heart of the issue, some would say. Do the Jews have any real reason or justification to advocate so continuously and loudly for their group interests? If race is a social construct, and surely a religion is, then what is genocide anyway? Why is it such a big deal? Call it mass-murder and move on. There is no difference between killing political dissidents and killing people based on made-up racial affiliation because it's just a social construct. Do you agree with that?

Raga wrote:Seems to be an explicit statement along the lines of what I outlined above.


You rambled on about front-porch-republican-supremacists and such and didn't say anything meaningful. Now you seem to be evading the issue. Gene distribution is the proof of the fact that race exists and is meaningful. Presuming you couldn't believe your eyes in the first place. Presuming you had no understanding of evolution beforehand. You are the one injecting supremacy here. Supremacy is a buzz-word and a tactic used to attack any (white) person who wants to advocate for their racial group (that doesn't exist but is still guilty of oppression and carries historical guilt). If you think yourself a free-thinker and an intellectual then you might try actually grasping at these issues.

Raga wrote:End the welfare state, end free trade, end consumerism.

End the welfare state, end free trade, end consumerism.

Since we share broad sentiments about the problem of modernity and I've posted numerous other long WoTs over the years detailing what I think about these things (welfare state, free trade, consumerism, technocray, cosmopolitanism, etc), I'll just leave these chunks alone.


Well I am definitely not going to dig up your, probably years-old, posts on this topic. I am glad we agree on something. I don't know precisely what we replace the system with. Most likely you can't do anything constructive without massive restructuring and for the best results in that case you probably need a lot of the excess people to "disappear", which will happen anyway when the whole thing collapses. Be that all at once or gradually. The system as it currently stands cannot last. In its simplest form I would say a better replacement would be a 'system' that encourages strong, self-sufficient families. As much as is practical (obviously not every family can grow or make everything they need). You start there though and expand to a greater community up to a certain point. Of the greatest ills of modern society is the atomization of people. The supremacy of the individual. An individual is nothing but an easier to control piece of chattel. The essence of liberty is self-reliance, not socialism. A socialist is a child; their parents are the government. They think because the government gives them food, medical care, security, a job, ect, that they are free. That's a dangerous illusion. A citizen of a welfare state is not free anymore than a child is. That's my view.

Raga wrote:
By this line of thinking, men are the very people who have produced the civilization which is lending their supposed civilizational building indispensability moot.


Men aren't perfect. I'm well aware of the fact that men built all this and then gradually undermined it, permitting corrosive elements to erode its very foundations. Men are just man, and man is imperfect. However it is still evident from opinion polls and voting patterns that men still have better sense of average. It is clear from surveys of men's occupations and tax% that they are still the bedrock of the country. We could all just return to stone-age living but that's not a good long term strategy. Rather a waste of rare and beautiful thing that is human intelligence. I'd suggest that a new system be designed that gives the most political power to those men who are responsible and have a real stake in the future. No single mom voters. No NEETS voting. No welfare receipients. No deadbeats. Ect. Universal suffrage was a terrible mistake and one that I can't decide if we arrived out through naivete or greed. Probably both.

Another important thing to understand about man's productivity and creativity, and it's downside, is that everything is a trade-off. High technology can make life wonderful and open up new avenues of exploration, new possibilities, and greater heights. However it can also provide a safe-haven for the useless and parasitical to thrive. A blossoming woodland forest that has thrived due to several years of abundant rainfall is also one that is at risk of massive and destructive fires after a drout hits.



Raga"} However, I will also add that insisting people have children they can't realistically pay for given today's reality simply creates a new kind of dysfunction.[/quote]

...but who will keep paying the taxes to support our aging population? Who will we have to support the service economy? GDP might fall.

Here is something that might help with all this: close off the options for support. No more no-fault divorce. No more celebration of hedonism (sluts, be they male or female). No welfare (if you can't support yourself you better have a big family or close community). Yes, there will be growing pains in the process of making this correction. That's inevitable. The longer we put it off the sharper those pains will be and the longer the pain will last.

[quote="Raga wrote:


My point is that while evolutionary processes can sometimes be reduced to clever little aphorisms "the survival of the fittest," "competition among males to win the right to pass on their genes," "mutations which are sometimes deadly or benign but also push evolution forward," these are usually borderline useless in actually predicting what specifically will happen.


It's good thing I'm talking about math here. I don't need to point out the specifics of how everything will ultimately fall apart; I can however point at all the ways it is falling apart RIGHT NOW. It is an incredibly big and complex system so I'm not going to try and predict every specific movement or weak point and then try to extrapolate precisely WHEN it will come undone. You can look at gradually crumbling infrastructure for some idea. You can look at general feelings of unhappiness and satisfaction for some idea. You can look at failing schools for some idea. You can look at falling birthrates for some idea. You can look at weakening faith in institutions for some idea.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 14th, 2019, 8:25 am

Gene distribution is the proof of the fact that race exists and is meaningful.


Please stick to your run-of-the-mill racism without bringing biology in it, because statements such as this one prove that you don't know anything about it. Thanks.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 14th, 2019, 4:27 pm

Joblom wrote:There is no difference between killing political dissidents and killing people based on made-up racial affiliation because it's just a social construct. Do you agree with that?


No, I don't believe that, but you are the one claiming that I think/said race is nothing but a social construct, which I never said.

Gene distribution is the proof of the fact that race exists and is meaningful.


I never once denied that race exists and I haven't even claimed that it's impossible for it to "be meaningful." I'm saying you have to define what "race" means and what "meaningful" means, you have to prove that such definition is warranted scientifically, and then you have to demonstrate on ethical grounds why the presence of said scientific proof means we must react to it in X way.

Supremacy is a buzz-word and a tactic used to attack any (white) person who wants to advocate for their racial group (that doesn't exist but is still guilty of oppression and carries historical guilt).


So I provide an example of what might be considered a non toxic variety of "white preservationism" or whatever the fuck you want to call it, to specifically separate it from white supremacism (both in the buzzword sense it's used in the media and in the traditional meaningful sense as it applies to groups like the KKK) and that's somehow evasive? Okay then.

In its simplest form I would say a better replacement would be a 'system' that encourages strong, self-sufficient families. As much as is practical (obviously not every family can grow or make everything they need). You start there though and expand to a greater community up to a certain point. Of the greatest ills of modern society is the atomization of people. The supremacy of the individual.


This is more or less my view as well, which is why I said I was a communitarian. It's also what those "Front Porch Republic" types I linked to are saying.

Where we differ is here:

The essence of liberty is self-reliance


Self-reliance is a myth. There is no "great man" history of anything. This is nothing but the atomization of the individual restated in a right of center way instead of a left of center way. There was a book I read awhile back called "Why Liberalism Failed" that makes this point if you want an in-depth explanation for how both the right and the left have contributed to the atomization of the individual. There is no separating humans from their web of relationships and their dependence on it. They are nodes in a network, devoid of purpose, meaning, function, or definition without the network. Even our vaunted intelligence is inseparable from our sociability, our interconnection with other humans. The most intelligent animals are almost invariably the most social, and the reason our brains were driven to the crazy heights of pattern recognition and causal understanding that they were is so we could keep track of the myriad and complex relationships we had in the troop/clan/band.

An argument that the center of support for people should be in the family and/or the tribe rather than the state or public charity is not the same argument as saying people should be "self-reliant."

And to that end, communitarianism isn't intrinsically inimical to the presence of a welfare state. It *is* inimical to the welfare state taking the place of the human grounding in direct, interpersonal relationships of family and clan. If you look at public support for welfare of the social democracy/Nordic model variety, you will find that the more homogeneous the society is, the more supportive people generally are of welfare in that society. I think that's highly significant. And by "welfare" here I mean literal welfare as well as a variety of progressive tax structures and redistribution programs. The "nation state" working as it is supposed to work is nothing but the family/clan carried at the level of abstraction. Because it's an abstraction, you can only stretch the idea so far before it starts to break. It's like I said the other day that if *everybody's* story is "anybody from anywhere can become one of us if only they accept X liberal values" that is really just another way of saying "there should be no nation-states." It's at that point where the common myths that bind people in a given nation-state together start breaking that you see so much of the dysfunction we currently have.

To put it another way: Nobody knows who the fuck they are anymore because they believe they are supposed to find that answer in some stupid little personal receptacle inside themselves. This is nonsense. (Incidentally, it's a product of some stupidity in German philosophy that looks at any ties that exist between a "self" and anything external to the self as inherently oppressive because it requires the "self" to accommodate something besides itself. If you dig into the history of Marxist thought, you'll find that this is at the root of true socialism as well).

Raga wrote:It's good thing I'm talking about math here. I don't need to point out the specifics of how everything will ultimately fall apart;


Are we talking about evolution here or not? Because pointing at something specific and quantifiable (average age/condition of bridges, taxes collected vs expenditures, etc) and saying "X is not sustainable" is not the same thing as basing extrapolations about societal demise in some supposed evolutionary mathematical equation about replicators and parasites or whatever, which is where this line of conversation started. You keep equating math and evolution. Evolution is not reducible to math. Certainly not at our current levels of understanding anyway.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 14th, 2019, 4:57 pm

*Edit*

Small addendum to what I was saying about animal intelligence and sociability. This assertion is dependent on how you define "intelligence." When I say it, I mean it in it's popular usage, which is really just saying "animals that behave the most like us." You could say that dogs are extremely "intelligent" at smell if all you mean by intelligence is that a huge percentage of their brain's processing power is dedicated to it.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 15th, 2019, 5:47 pm

This would go in Silly pics but it's kinda political so...

Image

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 15th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Not going to lie that made me laugh.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 15th, 2019, 5:57 pm

That's not funny... that is some eeerily plausible prediction.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » June 15th, 2019, 8:52 pm

It occurred to me, browsing the incel subreddit to see what those scamps are up to, that a man stating a preference for virgins is probably seen as degeneracy by the dominate culture. A perhaps unrealistic standard for an adult, but it would sound like a perversion if someone said it aloud, no?


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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 16th, 2019, 10:31 am

Vol wrote:It occurred to me, browsing the incel subreddit to see what those scamps are up to, that a man stating a preference for virgins is probably seen as degeneracy by the dominate culture. A perhaps unrealistic standard for an adult, but it would sound like a perversion if someone said it aloud, no?


I really do not see how it can not be gross. A woman's first sexual experience is going to be in about every case somewhat painful to very painful - and also in about every case, far less enjoyable than later, more experienced ones.

Specifically looking for intercourse with someone that is going to experience pain (and also less pleasure) through it...I don't see how it can be perceived as OK.

That pain can be mitigated through preliminaries and sexual excitement, but it requires an effort on the partner's part, and I highly doubt whoever posts in this sub gives any fuck about the pleasure of the person they're having sex with. They probably have minds full of hentai stories where girls become slave to sexual pleasure or something.

Thankfully, those guys tend to not have sex, which limits their nuisance.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 16th, 2019, 11:05 am

Also, the reasons for it historically are like 98% metaphysical with some 2% leaving concern about false paternity. For the later, either the woman is pregnant at time of marriage or she isn't, which if it's that big of a deal is pretty dang easy to identity if you just wait a few months and for the former, the metaphysics make 0 sense if you aren't religious.

I don't find the idea of somebody wanting a sexual partner with an analogous amount of sexual experience to themselves to be weird, but that would necessitate dude also being a virgin.

*Edit*

As an anecdote, I would have 0 interest in somebody who was rampantly promiscuous. Quantity & longevity of past relationships does totally tell you something of substance about people.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 16th, 2019, 11:15 am

From what I've seen throught the years, the main kink there is having sex with someone who hasn't been touched by anyone else yet, either because the guy wants to be the girl's first, or because he doesn't want "sloppy seconds".

So it's either a very creepy kink, or a very stupid one.

I mean... there's a reason porn fantasies are... well, fantasies. It's not the kind of stuff you really want to see going on in any real life scenario. Not if you want to have an healthy relationship with your partner.

For example... I have a thing for heavy bondage hentai... yet I don't have someone tied up in my basement like I'm a Pulp Fiction character ffs

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 16th, 2019, 1:25 pm

To be fair, it fits very well within the asshole incel mentality, since it is "sex for social status". Virgin girls are seen as "prized, harder-to-come-by" preys, so those guys who assume that more sex = better social status see them as the ultimate kind of recognition they could brag about on reddit. It's tremendously stupid too, because you're likely to have much more fun in bed with a girl who has experience already, but for them sex is not for fun or pleasure, it's just to show how alpha they are.

And since they are garbage human beings, they cannot hope to go for the other "big prizes", ie stunningly gorgeous girls, who probably have had a lot of experience dealing with assholes and will see them coming from a mile away. Instead, they hope that an inexperienced girl can be manipulated in giving them the sex they crave.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 16th, 2019, 2:02 pm

Yeah well, if that's the mindset behind the whole subculture, thank you for giving me one more reason to stay away from Redditt. As if after the whole reddit furries fuckery I needed more...

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » June 16th, 2019, 2:49 pm

They are basically 4chan/8chan users but who don't want to be anonymous: they want their name or pseudonym being associated with alphaness and virility because that's what make a man successful according to them.

Hence reddit where censorship is rather light - Trump supporters gather there for a reason. Most subs are okay (for large internet discussion forums). If you stay away from sex/kink- or politics-themed subreddits you will be fine.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 16th, 2019, 3:08 pm

Random thought I just had that has restored my faith in humanity by like 1.5%. I totally forgot but Trump has a like 12 year old son. You never hear anything about this kid, like at all. When he first became president there was a glut of articles preying on the kid from various angles and some former first kids and non shitty journalists came down on that like a ton of bricks. I have heard 0 about the kid since so it seems like the criticism stuck.

Not picking on kids is a pretty low threshold to step over but I just happened to think of that.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby TTTX » June 16th, 2019, 3:32 pm

Raga wrote:Random thought I just had that has restored my faith in humanity by like 1.5%. I totally forgot but Trump has a like 12 year old son. You never hear anything about this kid, like at all. When he first became president there was a glut of articles preying on the kid from various angles and some former first kids and non shitty journalists came down on that like a ton of bricks. I have heard 0 about the kid since so it seems like the criticism stuck.

Not picking on kids is a pretty low threshold to step over but I just happened to think of that.

If I remember correctly Trump did use his 12 year old son, to suggest violent video games are going to make kids more violent, because he saw his son play a violent video game once.
the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » June 16th, 2019, 11:30 pm

@Sine: By definition of "incel," none of them are having sex, so in their case. it's an academic discussion.

So you and Alien's responses are about what I expected, you would say it is a degenerate preference. It's probably never been realistic for a man past his teens to expect a woman of his age group to be his first, outside nobility, but I've seen data floating around that I cannot pin down right now that implied it would have been one to two partners before tying the knot on average. And in living memory, as we know, marriage used to be long term.

Though it's hard to say if the number has changed, or the rapid dissolution of the value of marriage has meant we wait longer to do so if ever, so the rate of new partners might be constant, barring drop in socialization post-college.

This also ties into the question of whether a sexual preference can be immoral if not acted on. I would suspect that most men, if given a choice of three "versions" of their ideal partner [virgin, a few, many], would choose the second for several reasons, but more would choose "virgin" than we'd think. Then the other way around, almost no woman would want a virgin man. Would be interesting to see a study on any of this.

It is funny how much anger the incels incite when they post "men prefer debt free virgins with no tattoos" on social media tho. A relic of a past time of male dominance with strict gender roles?! Smaaaaash!

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Mazder
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Mazder » June 17th, 2019, 6:01 am

Vol wrote: It's probably never been realistic for a man past his teens to expect a woman of his age group to be his first,

Well that's me fucked then.
Or...not in this case.
Expect is kinda the wrong word, more like, inevitable now that it's been past the teens.

Vol wrote:This also ties into the question of whether a sexual preference can be immoral if not acted on. I would suspect that most men, if given a choice of three "versions" of their ideal partner [virgin, a few, many], would choose the second for several reasons, but more would choose "virgin" than we'd think. Then the other way around, almost no woman would want a virgin man. Would be interesting to see a study on any of this.

Honestly as someone who is kind of a shut-in who hates the term incel, as nothing was involuntary in my accidental celibacy, or rather I am not removing/avoiding sexual relations, this is honestly one of my bigger fears as the scale of knowledge of navigation/practical application to basic social skills regarding sexual relationships against my age and what I "should" know is so disparate.
I am 27 with the "knowledge/practical application" of a 16 year old.
So no self respecting woman in my age group is likely wanting to guide this trainwreck through to up to speed with what I should/shouldn't have done, or are assumed socially to at least have known or done. Nor would I kind of expect her to. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's great if there is people out there like that for me, but I am doubtful those are as common as I'd like to give myself hope for.

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Alienmorph
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Alienmorph » June 17th, 2019, 12:07 pm

Just an interesting video. I'm posting it here simplyto be safe, because the argument is a bit of delicate one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mh-HqCzEZT4

(spoiler, the answer to the title's question is a strong "no")

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Raga
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Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Raga » June 17th, 2019, 1:28 pm

@ Incel stuff

There's a lot of stuff driving trends like this, but one thing I think is a big component that doesn't get mentioned much is how much Western society (especially the US) has come to value extroversion as opposed to introversion. There are actually some studies which have been done which document that the rate of people who qualify more or less as "introvert" is way, way higher in China, India, and generally in the Far East. Some of that may be genetic, but a lot of it is cultural. I'd be curious what the rates of "extroversion" are in the West over time. I'm willing to bet a big pile of money that it's gotten higher and is still getting higher.

People are adaptive. I'm one of those people who can fake extroversion enough to get by in jobs or social situations. But there's always limits to that.

a shy person may genuinely want to do those things or enjoy doing those things, but can't bring themselves to do it through fear.
Last edited by Raga on June 17th, 2019, 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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