Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I've got no issue with him testifying should it go to an actual impeachment. But it won't. This is a partisan hack job that they're throwing up because they were pushed into it by the idiots in the far Left. Pelosi didn't want to do this. But people like you are cheering it on.

[Vol]

Listening to the committee before they vote on taking the articles of impeachments to the House for a partisan vote.

I keep hearing "So Trump can cheat in 2020," which I suspect will be the talking point going forward after this dies in the Senate. Though I'm quite curious to see how the vote splits, since it won't be all Democrats on board. Probably will be a real tactical effort. And, as is expected, seems like the GOP in the Senate want a fast trial and acquittal, rather than drawing it out and calling witnesses and such, because they are nutless and part of the problem too.

Edit: The speeches are really melodramatic. They're true heroes of the Constitutions, doing a solemn, honest duty without joy or blah blah blah. Lot of emotion in their voices, but their faces are dead neutral.

[Mobius_118]

I've got no issue with him testifying should it go to an actual impeachment. But it won't. This is a partisan hack job that they're throwing up because they were pushed into it by the idiots in the far Left. Pelosi didn't want to do this. But people like you are cheering it on.

You really are just a useful idiot.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I've got no issue with him testifying should it go to an actual impeachment. But it won't. This is a partisan hack job that they're throwing up because they were pushed into it by the idiots in the far Left. Pelosi didn't want to do this. But people like you are cheering it on.

You really are just a useful idiot.

Uh huh. Sure I am. And Evil Drumpf is gonna get removed from office before 2020 by the heroic super duper brave Democrats who are totally going to successfully remove him for... things.

I wonder if you'll still be this rabid about it in the 2030's? Years after the end of his second term hmm?

[Raga]

*Vol art criticism*

You went full on Art Appreciation essay there, lol. My point was just that in all honesty if this statue was in some public place I wouldn't look at it twice because it just seems like typical "city plaza" art on casual glance. I would completely fail to notice what it was and even if I did notice I would only be kind of confused and wouldn't immediately understand what the point was.

I was also thinking more broadly about how heinous most public modern art is, whether it's sculptures or architecture. It's gotten better in the last 10ish years because glass, light, and plants seem to be back in vogue. If asked whether or not they wanted to live in some 200 year old townhouse or some postmodern 60 year old horror, I'm confident the overwhelming bulk of people would choose the old townhouse, leaky pipes and all.

Inasmuch as this stuff is *supposed* to be visually discomfiting, I think many (if not most) people resist it on those grounds and not really because they hate the subject in and of itself.

[Sinekein]

He shouldn't be removed from office, because if he does, we won't have a president trying to mock a teenager who got a popularity award he thought he deserved.Which is absolutely the kind of behavior you expect from the leader of a major nation.

...



I think that when Trump said The world is laughing at us - they think we are fools!", he meant that as a good thing, because he has been doing his damnedest for three years to ensure absolutely everyone can mock the United States of America. If you give this meaning to the tweet, then Trump's presidency indeed is a resounding success: he has actually made a fool of himself in front of the entire world, bar a handful of religious zealots who get a hard-on seeing fake strong men.

[Mobius_118]

Uh huh. Sure I am. And Evil Drumpf is gonna get removed from office before 2020 by the heroic super duper brave Democrats who are totally going to successfully remove him for... things.

I wonder if you'll still be this rabid about it in the 2030's? Years after the end of his second term hmm?

Sounds like you really have this "useful idiot" thing on lock.

You've ignored reality and embraced stupidity. You've taken US federal criminal code and tossed it because it doesn't fit your insanity. You've tossed the Constitution. You've ignored experts on this whole deal.

You are the quintessential trump supporter, dwindling in numbers and brain cells. Have fun in your dementia.

[Raga]

bar a handful of religious zealots who get a hard-on seeing fake strong men.

Well some religious zealots (assuming you mean diehard evangelicals) and also some pretty secular white blue collar types. I'd argue the later matter much more and are more indicative of this particular election because the evangelicals will always vote for whoever the Republican is whether it's some George Washington caliber statesman or Lucifer himself.

They are to Republicans what black people are to Democrats. The most reliable, unmoving core of the coalition, come hell or highwater.

[Raga]

There's a fair number of somewhat panicky "impeachment isn't catching on and Democrats are worried" articles that came out today for some reason. Unclear if that actually means something or is motivated by something or if it's just the typical chain of one journalist writing something and a bunch of others copying it.

[Sinekein]

bar a handful of religious zealots who get a hard-on seeing fake strong men.

Well some religious zealots (assuming you mean diehard evangelicals) and also some pretty secular white blue collar types. I'd argue the later matter much more and are more indicative of this particular election because the evangelicals will always vote for whoever the Republican is whether it's some George Washington caliber statesman or Lucifer himself.

They are to Republicans what black people are to Democrats. The most reliable, unmoving core of the coalition, come hell or highwater.

The point was to also cover other countries, like Italy or Brazil who have put similar assholes in charge. Those countries don't necessarily have a demographic similar to the black population of the U.S., but they most definitely have a super-conservative religious right ready to vote for anyone as long as he promises to bury the coloured and the gays and pays lip-service to the Good Book.

Salvini is all but embracing Mussolini's heritage at that point, but apparently that's not an issue because "Italy was strong back then".

It's quite interesting too to see them use the same kind of rhetoric about "restoring the greatness of the country", utterly failing to do so, but still claiming they do. I am pretty sure GAC is absolutely, 100% sure that the rest of the world now respects the U.S. more than they did under Obama. And I'm sure Bolsonaro supporters do think that now the entire world is impressed by Brazil's management at the moment. For a while, politicians tended to focus on the positive they did while being silent on the rest - that's communication 101 - but now is an era where absolutely everything that is done by the White House for example is fantastic and the greatest thing ever and anyone criticizing it is obviously a liar.

That's the kind of spin that would make Stalin or Kim proud, because without even having to control the media you get a not insignificant part of the population swallowing it hook, line and sinker.

[Mobius_118]

As well as vehemently defending their leader like a beaten spouse.

It's pathetic.

[Raga]

I don't know. I'm sure that's true for some but here at least, I think there's a sizable subset on the right who take being disapproved of (particularly by Europe) as a sign we are doing things right. There's two subspecies of that:

1) Europe will disapprove of us no matter what we do, so why do we even care what they think?

&

2) Inasmuch as we don't want to be Europe and don't like European policy, being disapproved of by Europe seems like we are on the right track.

I admit to having nontrivial bouts of sentiment 1 myself, especially as concerns intervention or nonintervention in various wars or humanitarian crises.

*Edit* It's like if French policy was polling terrible in Arkansas or Russia, would you really consider that a bad thing at all?

As for GAC and Mob and this thread: It's Tevinter and the Qunari. I'm content to let them fight each other.

[Alienmorph]

Salvini is all but embracing Mussolini's heritage at that point, but apparently that's not an issue because "Italy was strong back then".

No, it's worse than that.

As much as I'm not a fan of them, true fascists have their own code of conduct and values. Very "ohGodNO" fucked up ones, but thei're usually loyal to their cause, or at least their party, and to each other.

Salvini isn't even that. Salvini is basically a salesman pretending to be a fascist, pretending to be a patriot. All he does is pretending to care about "preserving Italy's christian roots" and "defending his country from immigrant invasions". So one day he goes on a fake pilgrimage kissing crucifixes like he's afraid Dracula is gonna show up and try to murder him, and the day after he goes to the palace Mussolini rallied the crowds and make one of his bullshit speeches from the very same balcony the fucking Dux use to do his.

He's a profiteer, a carrion-eater, who's using other people's fanatisms to get richer and more influent while saying and doing almost nothing of worth.

He's such a low-life that he doesn't even believe in fascists ideals, but has no problems exploiting the rats who do.

[Vol]

Speaking of Europeans, looks like the Tories are going to win yuge, Labour routed, based on exit polls.

[Raga]

Wasn't Corbyn proposing some out and out batshit things like nationalizing the internet and such? I haven't been paying too close attention.

*Edit* Apparently he just meant nationalize fiber and not "the internet" as most people think of it. Still I doubt that nuance is something most people understood.

[Vol]

I honestly wasn't paying attention either, but I did hear that Corbyn was going to be the reason his party won or failed, so that's probably true. A lot of "Pinch your nose and vote Labour anyway," got through my filter.

They're predicting...368 seats to Conservatives, 191 to Labour, then 69 among the rest.

I mean, I would assume this was mostly a Brexit thing for the average crumpet-dunker, but I'll defer to one of our resident Brits on that.

[Sinekein]

*Edit* It's like if French policy was polling terrible in Arkansas or Russia, would you really consider that a bad thing at all?

First, I doubt it's only Europe. Somehow I can't picture Trump being super popular in Asia either after his nonsensical NK diplomacy bouts and the trade war that causes economical unpredictability. Or in South America, because, you know, he's not that find of latinos. And didn't he describe some African countries as "shitty" at some point?

You don't need to be Western European to find Trump stupid. We might indulge more in moral superiority, but as long as you are able to lace your own shoes, you're basically fit to understand how dumb and erratic he is.

Second, I don't think the polling analogy is accurate. For me, that would be like if French policy was polling terrible in Arkansas or Russia (which would be normal I guess), but also if Macron kept rambling on and on about how popular his policies are in Arkansas or Russia and how no French president has ever been more popular in the Midwest than him, and how medias are trying to spin that he somehow wouldn't be popular in those uber-conservative areas. I don't care if our president is unpopular in certain areas of the world, but I do care if he starts claiming absurd facts when promoting himself.

If Trump was just saying about how he doesn't care about the opinion of the rest of the world and that they can stick their views up their arse, then fine, that would be straightforward if obnoxious. But he is pathologically unable to accept that he is not the best and the most popular at everything, so while his policies do fit "America first, the rest (except Israel and Saudi Arabia) can fuck itself", in his speeches, he keeps referring himself as being roughly as popular as Nelson Mandela, despite absolutely all evidence (branded Fake News, of course) pointing to the opposite.

[Sinekein]

From what I gathered from the UK, as soon as Labour picked Corbyn as a leader for that election, it couldn't end in a different way. You cannot win an election against a pro-Brexit Tory PM if you're not able to properly tell whether you want Brexit or not because you're too afraid to take a stance that will displease part of your voters.

Considering that Jo Swinson does not look to be a god-level politician, a competent pro-Remain Labour leader would have had way better results both by cutting some votes from the Libdems and by bringing in some left-wing Remainers who were probably too depressed to vote for that guy.

Also, somehow, Corbyn thought this election was about revolutionizing the UK's economy. The plan he proposed might have been interesting if that was the actual, central issue at work, and, oh, also, if there wasn't fucking Brexit looming and jeopardizing any future decision until it is settled. Such a total lack of political acumen is almost supernatural, it's like he managed to always be off-tempo. It's not that weird to miss one note on the score, but to miss all of them you need a special lack of savviness.

[Vol]

There's a fair number of somewhat panicky "impeachment isn't catching on and Democrats are worried" articles that came out today for some reason. Unclear if that actually means something or is motivated by something or if it's just the typical chain of one journalist writing something and a bunch of others copying it.

Chain copying. It's going to the vote, the vote will pass, it'll fail in the Senate in a likely quick trial. So the Dems are focused on having as few defections as possible, which is the biggest immediate concern, and then playing this is a moral victory afterwards, "We tried to stop Drumpf from cheating in 2020, but Mitch McConnell, the Great Turtle Satan, blah blah, donate to us and vote or redhats will be goosestepping down <your city> streets."

[Deano]

I really do hate my country and the moron's living in it. Sadly there wasn't a competent leader at Labour's head and the propaganda train was way to easy to get rolling vs ol Jeremy.

[TheodoricFriede]

So is Brexit actually going to happen now or will the joke continue for another 60 or 70 years?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

So is Brexit actually going to happen now or will the joke continue for another 60 or 70 years?

They'll likely do a "Soft" brexit which isn't really a brexit but call the manner done.

[TheodoricFriede]

Democracy at its finest.

[Vol]

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... un-control

Given a great many districts in VA have voted to be 2nd Amendment sanctuary areas, with more voting on the way, and very few agreeing to honor the new gun control laws, this could be interesting. Not likely there'll be any actual armed conflict or calling in the NG, but if the law is only being enforced in the blue districts, might cause some fireworks.

[Raga]

And it goes without saying that blue districts that refuse to enforce Federal immigration law are a-okay, of course. No contradiction at all.

[Mazder]

And my country has now decided to do another stupid.
Great.....
Now we have to deal with this shit even longer.

[Deano]

And my country has now decided to do another stupid.
Great.....
Now we have to deal with this shit even longer.

This is an awful thing to say but sadly we have to wait for another generation to die out before the country stops making these decisions, but luckily that will happen so much quicker when no one can afford health care.

In all seriousness I would like to see an impartial report on what has happened to the NHS recently and what will happen to it in the future under the conservatives. It's my main concern about them winning but labour has notoriously used it as a tool to win but I've also heard that the tories have been slowly selling parts of it.

A recent personal anecdote about the current NHS service from a friend suggests it's already in a really bad way where I am, he decided to go private to get an illness that the nhs hadn't been able to diagnose for months and that private healthcare immediately diagnosed it. The NHS said he would've had to wait till March to get his next appointment but according to the private doctor he would have been hospitalised before then. So are we already waiting to be on deaths door before we get treated?

[Raga]

Boris Johnson is Showing Western Politicians How to Win

(With the American caveat being that the longer Trump is around, the nastier the Left's backlash against him will probably be).

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Your NHS is dying because it is overworked. It is overworked because there are too many patients and not enough to go around. That miiiight have something to do with your level of yearly immigration. Your current Prime Minister has been very pro-NHS.

You will need to either drastically increase the funding to the service AGAIN to keep up with the waves of immigration or increase the funding and decrease immigration to try and get things stable on that front.

[Vol]

And it goes without saying that blue districts that refuse to enforce Federal immigration law are a-okay, of course. No contradiction at all.

I am sure there exists many people who perceive that a natural right to keep arms is equivalent to the concept of anyone who physically tries enters the country must be allowed to do so and stay forever.

Or maybe the existence of a law is innately valuable, and all laws as equal. Oodles of them, even.

Your NHS is dying because it is overworked. It is overworked because there are too many patients and not enough to go around. That miiiight have something to do with your level of yearly immigration. Your current Prime Minister has been very pro-NHS.

You will need to either drastically increase the funding to the service AGAIN to keep up with the waves of immigration or increase the funding and decrease immigration to try and get things stable on that front.

Or you can be like Japan. Huge population, but packed into a small geographic area. Very efficient public transit system. No philosophical issue with total government control of running industry and setting costs. Healthy population. Culture of scholastic achievement and personal responsibility to conform.

Totally incompatible with America, but works fine for them.

[Raga]

I am sure there exists many people who perceive that a natural right to keep arms is equivalent to the concept of anyone who physically tries enters the country must be allowed to do so and stay forever.

Or maybe the existence of a law is innately valuable, and all laws as equal. Oodles of them, even.

I admit I'm failing to get your meaning here.

[Vol]

I admit I'm failing to get your meaning here.

I, for the brief moment it took me to first read your comment and write my reply, became retarded, as I took your comment as the opposite of what you said.

Since then, I have recovered, and can read words gud again.

[Mazder]

Your NHS is dying because it is overworked. It is overworked because there are too many patients and not enough to go around. That miiiight have something to do with your level of yearly immigration. Your current Prime Minister has been very pro-NHS.

You will need to either drastically increase the funding to the service AGAIN to keep up with the waves of immigration or increase the funding and decrease immigration to try and get things stable on that front.

Immigration is one part of it but it is definitely not the main reason.

Funding has been the main reason.
The Tory party has never really been good at funding the NHS, mainly because they fancy an increase in privatisation. Many think the obvious that because they're in the higher economy bracket it means that there may be some who have stakes in patent companies, or have friends who have stakes in patent companies.

Boris Johnson has been "publically" pro NHS. But he's also been in support of the party who has done the most damage to the NHS currently, and has not replaced the individuals who are not really fixing the problem. He's either directly involved with it's current state, or he is indirectly involved because he wants to keep the Torries he likes in the affluent positions, despite their actual skill for the job.

[Raga]

Well, this is completely gross: On His Way Out, Kentucky Gov. Matt Bevin Pardons Murderers, Rapists, Hundreds More

Apparently, a unifying theme on the pardons is that the families of these assorted scumbags gave big donations to his campaign or pet causes of his.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Your NHS is dying because it is overworked. It is overworked because there are too many patients and not enough to go around. That miiiight have something to do with your level of yearly immigration. Your current Prime Minister has been very pro-NHS.

You will need to either drastically increase the funding to the service AGAIN to keep up with the waves of immigration or increase the funding and decrease immigration to try and get things stable on that front.

Immigration is one part of it but it is definitely not the main reason.

Funding has been the main reason.
The Tory party has never really been good at funding the NHS, mainly because they fancy an increase in privatisation. Many think the obvious that because they're in the higher economy bracket it means that there may be some who have stakes in patent companies, or have friends who have stakes in patent companies.

Boris Johnson has been "publically" pro NHS. But he's also been in support of the party who has done the most damage to the NHS currently, and has not replaced the individuals who are not really fixing the problem. He's either directly involved with it's current state, or he is indirectly involved because he wants to keep the Torries he likes in the affluent positions, despite their actual skill for the job.

Pretty sure some of that started under Blaire...

[Mobius_118]

Yeah trump's financial plans really helped us out.

His supporters are fucking retarded. Going from President Obama's strong economic policy to trump's enrich the rich shittery is fucking embarrassing.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Yeah trump's financial plans really helped us out.

His supporters are fucking retarded. Going from President Obama's strong economic policy to trump's enrich the rich shittery is fucking embarrassing.

Uh huh. I'm sure that's why so many new businesses are getting set up in the towns around my own, unemployment is down, and the economy is generally growing at a rate Obama thought impossible.

Fuck off Mobius of all the things you could bitch about the Economy is not one of them.

[Vol]

What is the issue?

"Major reforms to personal and corporate taxes in the United States prompted a significant drop in tax revenues, which fell from 26.8% of GDP in 2017 to 24.3% in 2018. These reforms affected corporate income tax revenues, which fell by 0.7 percentage points, and personal income tax revenues (a fall of 0.5 percentage points)."

We're in the area of Ireland, Switzerland, Korea, Chile, on this graph.

[Vol]

https://twitter.com/blue_labour/status/ ... 0256856073

"Welcome to the hundreds of new followers that have followed in the past 48 hours. A socialism which is economically radical and culturally conservative is the future of the Labour Party.

New essays and analysis will be published over the next few weeks. Glad to have you with us."

Oh me oh my.

[Raga]

It doesn't even need to be culturally conservative. It just needs to be sane. Basically how things were in 2010 when it was still possible for Obama to disagree with same sex marriage without being called a bigot, and when you could still say illegal immigration needed to be stopped and we should actually enforce our border laws, and when most people agreed we needed criminal justice reform to stop locking up potheads but that it didn't mean that every time some jocker gets shot robbing a liquor store that the police performed a racist execution, and most people totally thought we should do something about the terrible backlog of processing rape kits but not ostracize everybody who made a stupid rape joke on Twitter at age 16.

These are American examples but I don't think the spirit of it is far off from many other countries experiencing populist backlashes. Yes, broadly speaking the electorate wants a move left on economic issues. It doesn't mean they've signed up wholesale for critical race theory, queer theory, radical feminism, et al.

[Vol]

More a point of comedy that their takeaway from the loss is to sound like they're talking about national socialism. Though "conservative" in this context would still be cuckery, I assume.

As for your point about Obama, to be vague. There has been a large-scale, intentional consolidation over the means of communication, as well as the entrance of Millennials into seats of power, which allowed certain long festering groups of moral fascists to be forcibly introduced into the mainstream, which is then used as a bludgeon by certain peoples to beat certain views out of the population that would threaten the power and wealth of those privileged sorts. Hence why blackface is okay for white men on the left, and cadets making the "okay" hand sign at today's football game might be expelled. There cannot be a return to what we had in 2010, or 2005, because the process of undoing the New Morality will necessary create momentum that will shoot us right past it.

Funnily enough, I was saying that to people I debated online in the late aughts, when our cohorts were getting into college and being exposed to academic feminism and the like for the first time. Those early debates were about equality, making things fair, and I would constantly retort that the process to do so would have no end point though, and your methods will end up overshooting the target. Lo and behold!

In a void, most rational people would want leftist economics. You're safe and cared for and get a much easier life, all the perks and comforts come from abstract, paternal forces, and you can be a happy little man living a happy little life. In reality, there lies the path of good intentions. Austerity and asceticism are miserable, but vital, and the sweet spot is when your people can take care of themselves and each other, with a buffer for those who fall through the floor, and shame to get them back through it.

Also, it's amusing how red pill and black pills guys, in the context of dating, are each half "correct." Red pill, they believe in arcane nonsense. Psychological tricks and gimmicks and all sorts of clown shit. But they're trying, they improving themselves, but in a way as to be a hollow man in a meat market. The black pill guys have that nihilistic objectivity. Yeah, tall, handsome, buff, rich dudes that are charismatic and wonderful to be around are going to be the first choice for women. No shit, they sound amazing. And they go into all the little truths we're not supposed to say out loud because it's unseemly, and they make arguments that are not ever really refuted so much as sidestepped and mocked. But the problem there is that they wallow in their cynicism, rotting. So if you took the drive to succeed with the harsh reality that women are people rather than I/O devices, you'd have a fairly successful, if aloof, man.

That comes with the caveat that they don't just find someone who likes them for who they are and they can drop all the pills. Though looking at what little data there is on modern dating for 18-35 year olds is painting a grim picture.

[Mobius_118]

Yeah trump's financial plans really helped us out.

His supporters are fucking retarded. Going from President Obama's strong economic policy to trump's enrich the rich shittery is fucking embarrassing.

Uh huh. I'm sure that's why so many new businesses are getting set up in the towns around my own, unemployment is down, and the economy is generally growing at a rate Obama thought impossible.

Fuck off Mobius of all the things you could bitch about the Economy is not one of them.

Shut the fuck up, patsy. You have nothing to say of any constructive value.'

And trump should testify if he's innocent.

He won't, because he's a fucking bitch. Just like you.

[Raga]

Those early debates were about equality, making things fair, and I would constantly retort that the process to do so would have no end point though, and your methods will end up overshooting the target. Lo and behold!

Well, sure, but this is just axiomatic. And it's always been the case. The only times moral debates have ever stood still was when there was no change happening in a society, which usually means that society is stagnant, unchanging utopias being mythological and all. The question has never been *if* things will change, but how fast they will change. *The* debate of the moment as I've said before can basically be broken down as "faster vs. slower" and "somewhere vs. anywhere."

The thing that's sparking out and out rebellion isn't change of itself. Change that happens generationally usually goes along organically. Even if it causes societal decline it's a decline of gradual anemia and not one of out and out catastrophe or collapse. The problem is that positions that were extremely middle of the road less than ten years ago are now considered dangerous, fringe, and radical. Unless you were already extremely liberal or happened to be going through your main formative period in the last 5-10 years, the whole world seems to have been turned upside down. I would think that would spark some amount of instinctive revolt in roughly anybody 35 years or older who had even a single moderate or conservative bone in their body. Now whether they act on the instinct is another thing entirely.

And no, there's no going back. These ideas are out of the academic bag and out in the wild among activists and now being parroted by the leftist electorate itself to increasing degrees. But the brakes can certainly be put on it. So, yes, cuckery to a degree. Because conservatism never actually conserves anything. All it does is slow things down. That is it's real job I would argue. It forces people to take the path of gradualism, whether want to or not.

[Sinekein]

I hope that nonsense stays on the U.S. campus and does not cross the ocean, we definitely don't need Twitter debates as political manifestos. So far the various European lefts have resisted the call to look like that but I doubt social media influence is going down anytime soon, sadly. I'll be honest: when I hear that "country X has cut Twitter/Facebook", while I know that it's usually done to silently eliminate opponents or cover for something dark, I can't help but thinking about how much healthier the entire world would be without those brain-rotting apps.

Also I don't know what red pill and black pill guys actually refer to, I assume that's some MRA bullshit, but from the description I'd say what most of them deserve is to be put in a bag with some heavy stones and thrown into the sea, jeez. Are those the only options or is it still possible to be a healthy human being nowadays?

[Vol]

And trump should testify if he's innocent.

To be fair, I would never agree to testify on my own behalf, even if I was completely innocent of charges, unless absolutely necessary and my lawyer prepared me thoroughly. I'm smart enough to know how stupid I am when it comes to legal sparring and ways I can be trapped or made to look guilty, along with my own dearth of charisma. It could only hurt my case.

Well, sure, but this is just axiomatic. And it's always been the case. The only times moral debates have ever stood still was when there was no change happening in a society, which usually means that society is stagnant, unchanging utopias being mythological and all. The question has never been *if* things will change, but how fast they will change. *The* debate of the moment as I've said before can basically be broken down as "faster vs. slower" and "somewhere vs. anywhere."

The thing that's sparking out and out rebellion isn't change of itself. Change that happens generationally usually goes along organically. Even if it causes societal decline it's a decline of gradual anemia and not one of out and out catastrophe or collapse. The problem is that positions that were extremely middle of the road less than ten years ago are now considered dangerous, fringe, and radical. Unless you were already extremely liberal or happened to be going through your main formative period in the last 5-10 years, the whole world seems to have been turned upside down. I would think that would spark some amount of instinctive revolt in roughly anybody 35 years or older who had even a single moderate or conservative bone in their body. Now whether they act on the instinct is another thing entirely.

And no, there's no going back. These ideas are out of the academic bag and out in the wild among activists and now being parroted by the leftist electorate itself to increasing degrees. But the brakes can certainly be put on it. So, yes, cuckery to a degree. Because conservatism never actually conserves anything. All it does is slow things down. That is it's real job I would argue. It forces people to take the path of gradualism, whether want to or not.

Sort of. I would look at the treatment of American blacks as an example of a slow shift, legally and cultural. Which was too slow for many, but was making progress over the decades, then went entirely off the rails with the unintentional/intentional destruction of American industry, the black family unit, drugs, and academic leftism. Now we're in a backslide instead of eyeing a colorblind future with the younger generations, while systemically, it's a jumble of being too harsh, too kind, too generous, too stingy, and no one's happy. However, the racial violence is remaining heavily one-sided and rarely organized, so at least that metric isn't getting worse.

My impression is that there's a simmering resentment and urge for action that always exists in every society. It's getting worse in ours as the means of control for the New Faith are becoming stronger. Obviously, no likes having their way of life made into a great evil and their existence marginalized. Jokes aside about 'herp derp civil war now because pedo dragqueens in libraries," I can imagine a "shot heard 'round the world" spiraling out of control very quickly in the right circumstance. Such as that red flag siege in NY. We have a lot of young men with no stakes in the system, no hope, with a lot of bitter middle-aged men in similar boats who can guide them. It's not really about the value of belief systems so much as that the change was too fast, too total, and revels in celebrating weakness and victimhood as virtue. Men, as inherently destructive if not part of a stabilizing force, are not suited to that. However, we're still in an extremely peaceful stalemate, so that's nice.

The most frustrating part is that by opening the bag, they've lost the intellectual aspect. It's all simplistic empathy and wishful truths and purity spirals, and you cannot argue with that in a logical way without losing the fuzziness that colors morality.

[Mazder]

Pretty sure some of that started under Blaire...

And I blame him for the initial beginning.
But they have had the chance, a fairly hefty chance, to remove/repair the damage done, rescind policies and do the good they keep saying they're going to do, yet have not.
In fact they appear to be doubling down on that very prospect.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Yeah trump's financial plans really helped us out.

His supporters are fucking retarded. Going from President Obama's strong economic policy to trump's enrich the rich shittery is fucking embarrassing.

Uh huh. I'm sure that's why so many new businesses are getting set up in the towns around my own, unemployment is down, and the economy is generally growing at a rate Obama thought impossible.

Fuck off Mobius of all the things you could bitch about the Economy is not one of them.

Shut the fuck up, patsy. You have nothing to say of any constructive value.'

And trump should testify if he's innocent.

He won't, because he's a fucking bitch. Just like you.

Telling me to shut up is not a refutation coward. Don't worry I'll be waiting here when you're finally forced to realize that the far left isn't popular.

[Sinekein]

I'm smart enough to know how stupid I am when it comes to legal sparring and ways I can be trapped or made to look guilty.

Just to point out that it is a major difference between you and the POTUS.

[Raga]

Sort of. I would look at the treatment of American blacks as an example of a slow shift, legally and cultural.

It was/is. The dramatic change was the crack epidemic but that itself was fallout from economic forces. Basically, during the Great Migration of about 1910-1950, millions of black people left the rural South and moved North and into cities in the South. This worked out well for a while but was eventually undermined both by farm mechanization in the mid century (most black men were agricultural laborers still) and the gradual loss of manufacturing jobs starting in the 1960s. A lot of the things which get called "black cultural problems" are really just generic problems of economic stagnation. It's noteworthy that the heart of Trump country looks *exactly* like this now: ravaged by opiates instead of crack, lack of family formation, increased "deaths of despair" of suicide and overdose. The only major difference is that crime rates haven't spiked in Trump country, but that's mostly just because most of Trump country is rural and crime is generally lower in rural areas. The reason the economic stagnation took roughly 20 extra years to reach the white working class is because the black working class were in a more vulnerable position because of historical discrimination and wealth gaps.

But the thing causing it is the same for everybody. It's neoliberal economic policy, especially neoliberal policy used on the global level. And there's no cure for this I know of that involves *nothing* but asceticism and austerity. There's nothing for it but to apply at least some leftist economic policy.

*Edit* I was talking more about the gradual improvement in the economic prospects of black people and not so much how they are treated in law and culturally. That has had moments of profound, nearly overnight change (the Civil War & the Civil Rights movement), but you'll note neither of those attempts at radical change "took." Slavery ended, yes, but Reconstruction which was meant to culturally change the South was a monumental failure. Slavery was replaced by Jim Crow and convict lease within one generation. Desegregation was succeeding to some degree but was set back by this pitfall in black economic prospects as well as various policies designed to create and enforce de facto segregation in place of de jure segregation. There's been no consistent "cure" for the ills of black people than their ability to actually accrue wealth. Even when you remove barriers that arbitrarily prevent that, it still takes generations to actually happen.

[Mobius_118]

Telling me to shut up is not a refutation coward. Don't worry I'll be waiting here when you're finally forced to realize that the far left isn't popular.

You refute yourself, dumbass.

I did the thing that you always accuse me of, by posting a 3rd party, neutral party's findings on trump's tax plan and how it fucks us and you just said NUH UH like a fucking child.

I do that quite a bit, post up some actual facts and you just shit on it because you cannot accept that you're wrong.

And you keep saying that the left isn't popular, that trump is gaining in support, that impeachment isn't popular. That's funny. Every word you say is wrong.