Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Blah blah blah. You're rattling off your program instructions by rote dear.

Antifa in particular encompasses a large number of rather radical communists. That believe in burning and looting as a way to spread their message. You know proper terrorist tactics.

But none of that matters because fucking VOX of all hilarious outlets said otherwise. Update your software Mobius. You're using the old scripts.

[Mobius_118]

A decentralized group that only exists in the conservative mind.

You're scared by a boogeyman.

[Alienmorph]

A decentralized group that only exists in the conservative mind.

You're scared by a boogeyman.

Says the guy who think his whole society is rigged.

[Mobius_118]

By the rich? Absolutely. It's a tangible thing that we see every day.

Now someone explain to me why a group (antifa) beating the piss out of white supremacists is a bad thing.

I want to point and laugh.

[Sinekein]

It's hard to deny that the looting is made by the left when a radical commie like Jake Paul gets caught.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

By the rich? Absolutely. It's a tangible thing that we see every day.

Now someone explain to me why a group (antifa) beating the piss out of white supremacists is a bad thing.

I want to point and laugh.

Using violence is bad you fucking degenerate.

These insane ideologues attack people for the perceived crime of "White supremacy". Yeah I'm sure it's really easy to find lots of them in those democratic cities they frequent.

Believe it or not Mobius. There are people out there who believe that violence is a bad thing. Especially when it's done over fucking differences of opinions. God you're deranged.

[Alienmorph]

By the rich? Absolutely. It's a tangible thing that we see every day.

Now someone explain to me why a group (antifa) beating the piss out of white supremacists is a bad thing.

I want to point and laugh.

I didn't say that, just that you might want think twice about calling other people "scared of boogeymen" when it's pretty much your shtick 24/7.

Also you do realize alot of the current social justice craze in the US spanws from white wealthy people in places like New York and California, who are more interested into stroking their egos than to actually help anyone, don't you, Mr. "The Richs are the Problem"?

[Sinekein]

Believe it or not Mobius. There are people out there who believe that violence is a bad thing.

Except of course when the violence is routinely made by the police, in which case it is sadly needed to keep everyone in line or something.

[Sinekein]

Also you do realize alot of the current social justice craze in the US spanws from white wealthy people in places like New York and California, who are more interested into stroking their egos than to actually help anyone, don't you, Mr. "The Richs are the Problem"?

I think you are essentializing the various "leftist" ideologies a bit too much.

When Mobius and GAC trade insults here, it's usually either about politics, or about a social issue that fits the "serious" category - poverty, equality, or, in that case, police violence for example. I don't remember their usual exchanges to debate whether Gone with the Wind should be censored or whether Exodus was racist or not.

The people you describe here are not the ones in the streets in the US right now. You won't find armchair liberals in actual demonstrations, their playing field is Twitter, in which you can have all the indignation of the world from the safe comfort of your couch.

Basically, the more serious the cause is, the less you'll find those armchair liberals you often complain about. They're here to discuss whether the casting of movie X was diverse enough, but they really don't leave the social media world, and the reason the current demonstrations in the US are talked about so much is because they very much happen in the real world.

So in the current debate, the "wealthy people of New York and California" are barely more than a blip - except of course on Twitter.

[Alienmorph]

There are legitimate reasons to riot and protest, I've been to one or two anti-right wing protests too in the past (tho I didn't even crack a pebble, go figure smashing private property or vandalizing monuments). But that kind of legitimate social unrest then gets exploited and radicalized by the kind of people I, admidettly, often complain about, and that just adds more fuel to the fire and make things more unberable for everyone involved. Which is pretty much the opposite of what we need if we want people to better understand and respect each other, and to produce some positive, long-lasting improvement. It's not just the censorship and the online bullshittery, its implications and they way it ties all in with already troublesome situations are the main problem here.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Believe it or not Mobius. There are people out there who believe that violence is a bad thing.

Except of course when the violence is routinely made by the police, in which case it is sadly needed to keep everyone in line or something.

No it isn't you disingenuous frog.

Police brutality is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. BURNING shit down and looting isn't the way to go about it.

People in the US have the right to PEACEABLY assemble. The people burning and looting need to be disavowed and suppressed. Violence is fucking abhorrent.

[Sinekein]

I know. I was just pointing the irony in people complaining about the violence that erupted from protests about police violence. Violence became insufferable when it started targeting them or their property.

For the record I do not condone rioting or looting in any form. If those protests have anything in common with the usual in France, you have a majority of peaceful protesters who care about the message, some anarchists who want to fight the police, and the apolitical thugs who want to loot stuff and profit from the chaos.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I know. I was just pointing the irony in people complaining about the violence that erupted from protests about police violence. Violence became insufferable when it started targeting them or their property.

For the record I do not condone rioting or looting in any form. If those protests have anything in common with the usual in France, you have a majority of peaceful protesters who care about the message, some anarchists who want to fight the police, and the apolitical thugs who want to loot stuff and profit from the chaos.

The exact mix has seemed to vary based on the location. With the usual stickler of US tensions of things things usually remaining vaguely peaceful during the day and getting much worse at night.

Though many of these vandals have been destroying statues or pulling them down during the day as well. The thing that annoys me is that some of them have started going after people who we have statues for for unimpeachable reasons. Washington, Jefferson, people absolutely key to the Republic.

But because they did something that is now considered morally unacceptable they must be torn down.

Iconoclasm was a mistake when the "Byzantines" did it in response to repeated military failures against the Arabs. It's a mistake now too.

If you really want a statue gone you should be able to make a decent case and then let people decide on it.

[Vol]

*DACA snip*

Yes, both Bush presidents were neocons. Roberts is a moderate. Of all the branches of government, the judiciary in particular _should_ be extremely conservative, as they are not supposed to be a reflection of the times, or subject to political winds. Their job is to interpret the law and decide constitutionality. Given that by nature involves dealing with centuries old documents and ways of thinking, and all the legal precedent thereafter, their decisions aught be unanimous. Congress can be the upstart change makers, as that's their role in our government.

He said he's going to have DACA rescinded again shortly, with the extra hoops the SCOTUS demanded he jump.

But that's not the point, really. The point is that Obama issued an arbitrary EO, with no legal justification, and it was let stand. Trump, as the acting president, rescinds it. The courts interfere and claim primacy over the matter. Three years later, they say he's hamstrung by Obama's EOs unless he satisfies them. That is dangerous precedent, and absurd, the nature of the EO and the empathy the justices might feel for it are completely irrelevant. If the previous president can bind the current or future with untested EOs, and have the SCOTUS enforce it, we're at the whims of the court for allowing the executive to function at all.

There are legitimate reasons to riot and protest, I've been to one or two anti-right wing protests too in the past (tho I didn't even crack a pebble, go figure smashing private property or vandalizing monuments). But that kind of legitimate social unrest then gets exploited and radicalized by the kind of people I, admidettly, often complain about, and that just adds more fuel to the fire and make things more unberable for everyone involved. Which is pretty much the opposite of what we need if we want people to better understand and respect each other, and to produce some positive, long-lasting improvement. It's not just the censorship and the online bullshittery, its implications and they way it ties all in with already troublesome situations are the main problem here.

It bears repeating, again and again and again, that everyone was in agreement on the Floyd case. Reform would've gone through without a single case or arson, or statue torn down, or innocent beaten/killed by the rioters. Peaceful protests could've gone on and on unopposed and we wouldn't be watching a de facto cultural revolution hardening hearts.

While, as a moral person, I don't believe in forcing my belief systems on others through physical or economic or social means, we can see that the zeitgeist is vehemently against that concept. "Silence is violence, white man," as it were. I would ask you to reconsider your platform if your theoretical allies are tearing down the western world, and your enemies are standing around with their hands in their pockets because they still believe in peace and civility. Having a reasonable political center is a luxury, you know, and doesn't last forever.

[Mobius_118]

Do you know about what happened in Tulsa, Oklahoma? 1921, when white supremacists firebombed the mostly black city? Went around lynching black people?

How about now, as BIPOC keep getting murdered by police, white supremacist groups, the government? You're silent as that happens but oh no, some group that hasn't killed a single person since they came under the spotlight and you are rabid about condemning them. Silent as fuck about the alt-right though.

Oh, and about the riots and looting...Not a single one who's been arrested has ties to antifa. There's been a slew of white supremacists though. You're silent about that.

You're silent about violence coming from the right, but one dickface named Richard Spencer gets punched on TV and you lose your mind.

Your own personal god trump incites violence against political opponents, people who disagree with him, whole state governments. You are silent about that as well.

Antifa? Antifa is a concept. Anti-facism is something to aspire to.

Fascism should be stomped out. Fascism is an idea that, from every post you make, looks like something you wish to pursue.

[TTTX]

Fascism should be stomped out. Fascism is an idea that, from every post you make, looks like something you wish to pursue.

Pretty ironic coming from a guy who wants a one party system.

[Mobius_118]

Can't recall whenever I said that.

It'd be nice if the conservative party could stop pursuing fascist ideals. However, here we are.

[Alienmorph]

Antifa? Antifa is a concept. Anti-facism is something to aspire to.

I AM anti-fascist, is not that hard.You recognize everyone should have the same basic rights and opportunities, yes even those you don't like, that we're better off when our government is a democracy and generally speaking you try your best not to be a disruptive dickhead.

Justifiying vandalism and doing stuff like pretending that white supremacists equals all white people, and thus is okay treating them like shit, is being a disruptive dickhead. Therefore there are PARTS of the whole Antifa movement I can't support because... repeat it with me... you cannot fight fascism by acting like a fucking fascist.

Also, I would love to ear your thoughts about non-white extremists, or cases of police brutality where the victim wasn't an african american, or on ANY other matter connected to legitimate social issues that can't be boiled down to "dem white dickheads". Because I'm not in denial about the things you talk about being real and major issues, but you seem all too eager to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

[Buffy]

Can someone explain to me what is actually so bad about Fascism, or more specifically what makes it worse than Communism or other totalitarian regimes? I often see people demonize Fascism while at the same time ignoring or even praising Communism, which is not something I quite understand.

[Sinekein]

Also, I would love to ear your thoughts about non-white extremists, or cases of police brutality where the victim wasn't an african american, or on ANY other matter connected to legitimate social issues that can't be boiled down to "dem white dickheads". Because I'm not in denial about the things you talk about being real and major issues, but you seem all too eager to ignore anything that doesn't fit your narrative.

You probably have some black (or latin) supremacists who basically would be all too happy to make to white (and other colors) people what they have suffered because they think they're better than everyone else. They exist. I'm pretty confident in saying they are a huge minority, roughly like the feminists who want to turn the patriarchy into a matriarchy.

The majority of activists want to solve police violence. They protest against police violence against black people, but that's because it is the most obvious kind of police violence, and the most common. Their point is that police should be less violent, against black people in particular because they have that bias, but also basically in general. If their ideas are pushed through, police violence as a whole might go down, and that also means white people will be less likely to die from police brutality. I seem to remember that black people were three or four times as likely to be killed by the police in the U.S. - but white people were still roughly seven or eight times more likely to be killed by the police in the U.S. than they would in France, which is not exactly the shining example of police behavior in Europe. If you cut police violence, it will help everyone - the fact that it will help black people more does not mean white people will be targeted more. The point of the protests is not to say "guys, start randomly killing white dudes too for equality's sake".

It is similar with some feminist themes. Many rather moderate feminists are fighting against gender clichés because it creates unhealthy expectations for women (thin waist, perfect skin, great hair, elegance in every situation...)...but by tearing those clichés down it will also tone down the expectations for men which can be equally as unhealthy (being muscular, well-groomed, well-dressed). Sexist clichés are harmful to both women and men, and the fact that the struggle comes mostly from women because they tend to suffer from sexism more does not mean that improving the situation will be detrimental to men, on the contrary.

However, in both cases, if you perceive the world as a balance of power, then yes, as a white guy you don't want to solve police violence, because it will reduce the gap between white and nonwhite people. Same with sexism: women tend to suffer from it more; if you improve both of your lots but women benefit more, then the gender bias will be reduced and the boons of being a guy will be less obvious.

[Buffy]

They protest against police violence against black people, but that's because it is the most obvious kind of police violence, and the most common.

Here are some interesting facts:

On average, in the United States of America;

136 law enforcement officers are killed by black males each year.

96 black males are killed by law enforcement officers each year.

300 white males are killed by law enforcement officers each year.


Then there’s this…

431 black men killed a white man in 2014.

193 white men killed a black man in 2014.

6000 black men killed another black man in 2014.



Something to keep in mind while having this discussion.

[TTTX]

Can someone explain to me what is actually so bad about Fascism, or more specifically what makes it worse than Communism or other totalitarian regimes? I often see people demonize Fascism while at the same time ignoring or even praising Communism, which is not something I quite understand.

It's WW2 and the Nazi casting their shadow because of what we have been taught in school (and I don't feel like I have to explain why they're remember as being so terrible), Nazi was the worst of the 20th century (technically Stalin and Mao have the higher kill count during their reigns, then what happened under the Nazis and they were stopped, Stalin and Mao weren't and that makes them worse IMO), and that makes them Poster Boys of Fascism, even though the Sovjet Union, China and others during the 20th century basically created Fascist countries under a different name, Communism and they generally happened in countries the west didn't care much about in regards to history (history is generally about your own country or world events like WW2).

At least that's my take on it.

[Alienmorph]

That you, Joblom? I'm going to answer for the sake of argument, but don't think you're fooling anyone...

Can someone explain to me what is actually so bad about Fascism, or more specifically what makes it worse than Communism or other totalitarian regimes? I often see people demonize Fascism while at the same time ignoring or even praising Communism, which is not something I quite understand.

Communism is... messy. The theoretical version people like Marx formulated had some merits, but any real life attempt at applying it has resulted in regimes nobody in their right mind could endorse. Fascism on the other hand is totalitarian and elitists by its very nature, I have not a damn clue how you could make a case for a fair and liveable fascist state, assuming that's not just one big oximoron, which seems to be the case to me.

Something to keep in mind while having this discussion.

That's not even the point, even a single civilian casualty should be one too many, regardless of race, gender or social class. The fact this whole situation is being used to build a narrative around the race and the culture of the victims and the perpetrators, instead that trying to stop the loss of lives as a whole is the problem.

[Mazder]

They protest against police violence against black people, but that's because it is the most obvious kind of police violence, and the most common.

Here are some interesting facts:

On average, in the United States of America;

136 law enforcement officers are killed by black males each year.

96 black males are killed by law enforcement officers each year.

300 white males are killed by law enforcement officers each year.


Then there’s this…

431 black men killed a white man in 2014.

193 white men killed a black man in 2014.

6000 black men killed another black man in 2014.



Something to keep in mind while having this discussion.

Also something to keep in mind, per capita.

Yes it's a tiktok but the guy shows the per capita divide

And even then the numbers isn't the issue as it's not JUST deaths, but mistreatment across the board.

[TTTX]

Communism is... messy. The theoretical version people like Marx formulated had some merits, but any real life attempt at applying it has resulted in regimes nobody in their right mind could endorse. Fascism on the other hand is totalitarian and elitists by its very nature, I have not a damn clue how you could make a case for a fair and liveable fascist state, assuming that's not just one big oximoron, which seems to be the case to me.

well according to Marx, Communism/socialism is suppose to happen in countries like the USA, France, etc and not poor countries like what happened in Russia, China, etc.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Communism is... messy. The theoretical version people like Marx formulated had some merits, but any real life attempt at applying it has resulted in regimes nobody in their right mind could endorse. Fascism on the other hand is totalitarian and elitists by its very nature, I have not a damn clue how you could make a case for a fair and liveable fascist state, assuming that's not just one big oximoron, which seems to be the case to me.

well according to Marx, Communism/socialism is suppose to happen in countries like the USA, France, etc and not poor countries like what happened in Russia, China, etc.

Buffy's not wrong. Fascism and Communism are moral equivalents. They're both reprehensible and have lead to the deaths of millions for fucking stupid reasons.

But one of them is roundly shunned while the other is lauded by intellectuals the world over. it's fucking sad.

[Sinekein]

They protest against police violence against black people, but that's because it is the most obvious kind of police violence, and the most common.

Here are some interesting facts:

On average, in the United States of America;

136 law enforcement officers are killed by black males each year.

First line is BS already. There were fewer than 50 law enforcement officers killed in 2019 in total. And that seems to be roughly the same each year. Even if black people did all the cop killing, they'd need 3 times as many kills to match your stats.

Also there are four times as many white people in the US as there are black people, yet cops only kill twice as many white people as black people.

Also, once again, your stats are complete poop (an average of 200 black people killed by police each year compared to roughly 400 white people, so nowhere near the numbers you pulled from I don't know where).

[Alienmorph]

well according to Marx, Communism/socialism is suppose to happen in countries like the USA, France, etc and not poor countries like what happened in Russia, China, etc.

That was the main flaw in his whole argument, he assumed waaaaay too much about wealthy countries and the people in them. It was an age of social transformations when he formulated communism, but... yeah. And after that, the wrong people appropriated and twisted what he preached, almost in the same ways religions often are. At this point is hard to tell if Marx was really on to something, but there's no doubt that any attempt to apply and secolarize his ideas has been a failure.

[Buffy]

I have not a damn clue how you could make a case for a fair and liveable fascist state

I'll give it a shot:

Fascism is a collectivist ideology. It is the ideology that the group's well-being is more important than the individual's well-being. More specifically: fascism argues the well-being of the group is fundamental to the well-being of the individual. If the collective is prosperous, so is the individual who is a part of that collective. Fascism encourages empathy for your neighbors and promotes acts of selflessness in order to benefit the collective.

Fascism is built on an in-group versus out-group mentality. This in-group could be anything: a race, a nationality, a social class or a religious denomination, but often it's a combination of some of the above. The very purpose of fascism is to make the state extremely livable for their in-group. This sucks if you belong to the out-group, but unless your fascism is built on something heredity like race, gender or sexuality, it's possible to become part of the in-group and enjoy the benefits of fascism. Of course, a fascist state wont just let any pleb join their in-group, but only those who have something of value to contribute to the in-group. This again sucks if you are a worthless outsider, but it's extremely beneficial for the in-group, as it keeps out the undesirable who contribute little to nothing to society, which is ultimately a benefit.

Diversity is not a strength, but a weakness. A nation divided is a nation easily conquered. A nation divided is a nation that will fall, like Rome did. For a nation to prosper, it needs a single goal and strong sense of unity and patriotism. Nations who are more homogeneous and uniform have historically always done better than nations who were more diverse. Even Rome, which people often point to as being extremely diverse, imposed a single identity and ideology on all their citizens. The Romans would often cherry-pick the ideologies of the people they conquered and implemented the best parts into their own. This made the Roman's ideology stronger and more palpable to the new citizens of the conquered nation. But when in Rome, you do as the Romans do, is how the old saying goes. It's when Rome stopped promoting uniformity and embraced diversity that Rome started to decline and eventually fell.

This does not mean that under fascism everyone has to think the same, on the contrary, diversity of thought is welcomed, but ideas that would harm the nation would be shut down. Fascists believed in survival of the fittest, and that includes survival of the fittest ideas. If your idea is great, it will prosper under fascism. If your idea is garbage, it will be stomped out.


How did i do?

[Sinekein]

So you're Joblom's alt. Good to know.

[Buffy]

They protest against police violence against black people, but that's because it is the most obvious kind of police violence, and the most common.

Here are some interesting facts:

On average, in the United States of America;

136 law enforcement officers are killed by black males each year.

First line is BS already. There were fewer than 50 law enforcement officers killed in 2019 in total. And that seems to be roughly the same each year. Even if black people did all the cop killing, they'd need 3 times as many kills to match your stats.

Also there are four times as many white people in the US as there are black people, yet cops only kill twice as many white people as black people.

Also, once again, your stats are complete poop (an average of 200 black people killed by police each year compared to roughly 400 white people, so nowhere near the numbers you pulled from I don't know where).

I said "on average", so linking to the 2019 stats proves nothing. Look at the stats of the other years, you'll see the statistic I brought up is correct.

Despite blacks making up only 13% of the US population, on average, 42% of all cop-killers are black. And despite making up only 13% of the population, blacks commit 52.5% of the violent crimes and 35% of all crimes in general.

Also, black and Asian cops are equally as likely to shoot a black man who resists arrest, it's not just the white cops doing this. Again, something to consider when continuing this conversation.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

The style isn't actually the same. Joblom was much more traditionalist.

[Buffy]

So you're Joblom's alt. Good to know.

Who is Joblom and why would I be his/her alt?

[Sinekein]

The style isn't actually the same. Joblom was much more traditionalist.

You're telling me a small community like this one will have two people trying to (emphasis on "try") eloquently promote fascism - and unironically, and not in a horseshoe way to attack radical leftist ideas - and supporting that it is impossible for people with diverse ethnicities to live together. And that this buffoon pops up out of nowhere right when racial tensions are on the rise, after the previous bozo went silent for months when he realized everyone here was calling him out on the shit he had for brains? It's not like there is any promotion to this forum: either you knew about it already, or you don't know about it.

I'm an idealist, I don't think it that likely that a small group such as this one can host two prime examples of horrendously shitty human beings. They must be one and the same. The writing style is the same too: verbose and convinced it is supremely smart by aligning one idiocy after another and thinking it understands anything about causality and logic. The first post, "innocently" asking what is wrong with fascism, was super-stinky to begin with, and 100% Joblom-like.

If they're not the same person, then I suggest we get them to meet each other so they can exchange their marvelous opinions without wasting everyone else's time.

[Buffy]

This Joblom person sounds like a nice guy/girl.

And thanks for the high praise Sinekein, I take everything you said as a compliment, even the part where you call me a horrendously shitty human being. Your conclusions and your way of treating me despite never having met before really says more about you as a person than it says about me.

[Sinekein]

What there is to say about you is that you're a fucking nazi. So that being said, kindly go fuck yourself and don't even bother trying to interact with me from now on. I'm going to ask Vol to get the same treatment Theo got for Mob because it will save me time and energy just ignoring your existence altogether.
Edit: oh, that foe system is great. I'm gonna retroactively add Joblom too for safety.

[Buffy]

I am not, in fact, a Nazi. I don't even like the Nazi ideology, it's horribly flawed and just plain weird. I'd say it's a worse ideology than socialism, but I think socialism is more insidious, as it seems to have snuck into so many western spaces and it ropes gullible people in and turns them into little radicals. Of all the current western ideologies, socialism really is the worst.

What does the foe system even do? Does it block people? I don't wanna block people. I enjoy seeing people making a fool of themselves.

[Mobius_118]

If only I could check IP addresses and find out who's being a sock puppet.

[TheodoricFriede]

What is it with this fucking group. Jesus Christ...

[Mazder]

I'll give it a shot:

Fascism is a collectivist ideology. It is the ideology that the group's well-being is more important than the individual's well-being. More specifically: fascism argues the well-being of the group is fundamental to the well-being of the individual. If the collective is prosperous, so is the individual who is a part of that collective. Fascism encourages empathy for your neighbors and promotes acts of selflessness in order to benefit the collective.

Fascism is built on an in-group versus out-group mentality. This in-group could be anything: a race, a nationality, a social class or a religious denomination, but often it's a combination of some of the above. The very purpose of fascism is to make the state extremely livable for their in-group. This sucks if you belong to the out-group, but unless your fascism is built on something heredity like race, gender or sexuality, it's possible to become part of the in-group and enjoy the benefits of fascism. Of course, a fascist state wont just let any pleb join their in-group, but only those who have something of value to contribute to the in-group. This again sucks if you are a worthless outsider, but it's extremely beneficial for the in-group, as it keeps out the undesirable who contribute little to nothing to society, which is ultimately a benefit.

Diversity is not a strength, but a weakness. A nation divided is a nation easily conquered. A nation divided is a nation that will fall, like Rome did. For a nation to prosper, it needs a single goal and strong sense of unity and patriotism. Nations who are more homogeneous and uniform have historically always done better than nations who were more diverse. Even Rome, which people often point to as being extremely diverse, imposed a single identity and ideology on all their citizens. The Romans would often cherry-pick the ideologies of the people they conquered and implemented the best parts into their own. This made the Roman's ideology stronger and more palpable to the new citizens of the conquered nation. But when in Rome, you do as the Romans do, is how the old saying goes. It's when Rome stopped promoting uniformity and embraced diversity that Rome started to decline and eventually fell.

This does not mean that under fascism everyone has to think the same, on the contrary, diversity of thought is welcomed, but ideas that would harm the nation would be shut down. Fascists believed in survival of the fittest, and that includes survival of the fittest ideas. If your idea is great, it will prosper under fascism. If your idea is garbage, it will be stomped out.


How did i do?

Terribly.
The main argument for your benefit is the same as Communism.
State rules, follow the party line, don't be an undesireable and don't like personal freedom.

And that's putting it the nicest way I possibly can.

In reality, fuck off fascists.

This Joblom person sounds like a nice guy/girl.

And thanks for the high praise Sinekein, I take everything you said as a compliment, even the part where you call me a horrendously shitty human being. Your conclusions and your way of treating me despite never having met before really says more about you as a person than it says about me.

If you think a racist. bigoted, arrogant asshole is a nice person, then we have learned all about your character from that alone.

[Alienmorph]

-double post-

[Alienmorph]

How did i do?

Ahaha... yeah no. Not even close. Again, just for sake of argument...

Fascism is a collectivist ideology. It is the ideology that the group's well-being is more important than the individual's well-being. More specifically: fascism argues the well-being of the group is fundamental to the well-being of the individual. If the collective is prosperous, so is the individual who is a part of that collective. Fascism encourages empathy for your neighbors and promotes acts of selflessness in order to benefit the collective.

Fascism is a cult. A cult of the State and a cult of the Leader. In that sense, it isn't all that different from the totalitarian regimes started out by communist ideologs. The basis of it all is that you need to do to get a better life is to grow and protect your country, and that the Leader knows best how to do it, and all you have to do is completely trust into him, which is of course an EXTREMELY easy to abuse foundation. As for selflessness and empathy for your peers... I'll get to that in a bit.

Fascism is built on an in-group versus out-group mentality. This in-group could be anything: a race, a nationality, a social class or a religious denomination, but often it's a combination of some of the above. The very purpose of fascism is to make the state extremely livable for their in-group. This sucks if you belong to the out-group, but unless your fascism is built on something heredity like race, gender or sexuality, it's possible to become part of the in-group and enjoy the benefits of fascism. Of course, a fascist state wont just let any pleb join their in-group, but only those who have something of value to contribute to the in-group. This again sucks if you are a worthless outsider, but it's extremely beneficial for the in-group, as it keeps out the undesirable who contribute little to nothing to society, which is ultimately a benefit.

Yes, fascism needs an Other. Someone to hate, someone to frame for what's wrong with society, a boogeyman only the Leader and the State knows how to protect you from. Doesn't have to be a military threat... cultural and economical ones work just fine too, if not better, because they let you instill paranoia and mistrust in the population (what the Nazi had going with the Jews is the most tragically obvious examples). Inclusion in the State happens only through subjugation, either by conquest or by indoctrination, and it easily creates subgroups even inside the regime between who was part of it from the getgo, and who was brought into it on a later date. That is also why your previous "empathy for your peers" argumen is completely b.s., the common folks in a fascist regime are thaught to distrust anyone and anything but the central authority, and are encouraged to spy on each other and rat out any potential enemy hiding among them.

Diversity is not a strength, but a weakness. A nation divided is a nation easily conquered. A nation divided is a nation that will fall, like Rome did. For a nation to prosper, it needs a single goal and strong sense of unity and patriotism. Nations who are more homogeneous and uniform have historically always done better than nations who were more diverse. Even Rome, which people often point to as being extremely diverse, imposed a single identity and ideology on all their citizens. The Romans would often cherry-pick the ideologies of the people they conquered and implemented the best parts into their own. This made the Roman's ideology stronger and more palpable to the new citizens of the conquered nation. But when in Rome, you do as the Romans do, is how the old saying goes. It's when Rome stopped promoting uniformity and embraced diversity that Rome started to decline and eventually fell.

This is the part that cracks me up the most. Not only because Rome and its empire are one of the things most totalitarian regimes look up to, not only because through most of its history Rome was democratic to some degree (even after it became an Empire, it still had a Senate doing most of the housekeeping work, although the Emperor had the final word yes) but because Rome actually was a VERY cosmopolitan culture, they did more than just "cherrypick", the government and the military were the things that were the most uniform. So did the Persians, and to a certain degree the Chinese too. You cannot realistically keep an hold of a huge population and territory long enough for it to spontaneously homogenize without some concessions, and suppressing conquested cultures is only going to brew more inner conflicts, thus making your nation MORE divided and, by your definiton, more vulnerable.

This does not mean that under fascism everyone has to think the same, on the contrary, diversity of thought is welcomed, but ideas that would harm the nation would be shut down. Fascists believed in survival of the fittest, and that includes survival of the fittest ideas. If your idea is great, it will prosper under fascism. If your idea is garbage, it will be stomped out.

Fascism is the death of diversity of opinion. What the Leader says is what's true, and everything else is false and dangerous and is taken down with extreme prejudice. Only new ideas that can be warped and integrated into the regime ideology are kept, like when most race-based regimes use Darwinism and the Nietzche's Uber-Mensch to justify what they preached, while only having a very flawled and radicalized understanding of it. Only those up in the social ladder have the faintest chances to get their ideas and opinions heard, and often those in such position are fierciely loyal to their regime and/or have no intention of compromising their priviledge position, and thus bring very little of worth to the table.

Joblom or not, you sure as hell seem to be the kind of guy who has a very idealized view of a very VERY terrible ideology (and that's putting it lightly), probably because you were born and raised in a country that never actually experienced a totalitarian regime, or because you're the kind of fool who thinks that education = indoctrination and has rejected everything they were taught at school. Or both. And frankly, this whole conversation is starting to make my skin crawl.

[TTTX]

This Joblom person sounds like a nice guy/girl.

And thanks for the high praise Sinekein, I take everything you said as a compliment, even the part where you call me a horrendously shitty human being. Your conclusions and your way of treating me despite never having met before really says more about you as a person than it says about me.

Joblom was a racist and hated Jews and blames them for everything wrong in the USA, at least that's how I understood him.

I am not, in fact, a Nazi. I don't even like the Nazi ideology, it's horribly flawed and just plain weird. I'd say it's a worse ideology than socialism, but I think socialism is more insidious, as it seems to have snuck into so many western spaces and it ropes gullible people in and turns them into little radicals. Of all the current western ideologies, socialism really is the worst.

As a guy who lives in Denmark who has socialism in it, like free healthcare and, get to be payed when you go to highschool and university or basically any higher education and there is a net in case you lose your job, so having some stuff from socialism in your countries systems can work as we see in the Scandinavian countries.

At least I think it's better then the USA systems where everything can cost a lot in those systems I mentioned.

[TheodoricFriede]

We are now tearing down statues of Theodore Roosevelt.

Can we just skip to the book burning please? At least then all the pretension will be gone.

[Buffy]

We are now tearing down statues of Theodore Roosevelt.

Can we just skip to the book burning please? At least then all the pretension will be gone.

This wouldn't happen under fascism you know. All these rioters would be shot on sight if the USA was a fascist state.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

We are now tearing down statues of Theodore Roosevelt.

Can we just skip to the book burning please? At least then all the pretension will be gone.

The really funny thing is that these idiots are acting very similar to the "Evuhl mega fascists" they claim to oppose.

Tearing down history, attacking their outgroup, insisting on power for themselves. Really interesting to see the horseshoe in action.

[Buffy]

Fascism is a cult. A cult of the State and a cult of the Leader. In that sense, it isn't all that different from the totalitarian regimes started out by communist ideologs. The basis of it all is that you need to do to get a better life is to grow and protect your country, and that the Leader knows best how to do it, and all you have to do is completely trust into him, which is of course an EXTREMELY easy to abuse foundation. As for selflessness and empathy for your peers... I'll get to that in a bit.

That's one form of fascism, yeah, but doesn't have to be. Mussolini's Fascist Italy eventually and regrettably became a cult of personalty with himself as the de facto legal dictator, but it didn't start that way. Mussolini saw how incredibly productive a country can be in a state of war, and wondered why that is and why nations couldn't be equally as productive during times of peace. Mussolini was also a fan of Plato and indeed, his ideas for Fascist Italy were often directly taken from Plato's Republic. But collectivism always seems to breed totalitarianism and Fascist Italy was no exception.

the common folks in a fascist regime are taught to distrust anyone and anything but the central authority, and are encouraged to spy on each other and rat out any potential enemy hiding among them.

This statement has very little basis in fact when looking at Fascist Italy. Also, Nazi Germany wasn't truly fascist, by the way. The Nazis had very little in common with the Italian fascists. Nazi Germany had arguably more in common with the Soviet Union.

even after Rome became an Empire, it still had a Senate doing most of the housekeeping work, although the Emperor had the final word yes

That's what Mussolini's Italy was as well.

Fascism is the death of diversity of opinion. What the Leader says is what's true, and everything else is false and dangerous and is taken down with extreme prejudice.

That's partially true, but not fully. Mussolini actually promoted cooperation between employee and employer and tried to uplift the working class and bridge the gab between the classes.

Only those up in the social ladder have the faintest chances to get their ideas and opinions heard, and often those in such position are fierciely loyal to their regime and/or have no intention of compromising their priviledge position, and thus bring very little of worth to the table.

That's honestly true for every society, even democratic ones. Believing otherwise is being ignorant or willfully ignorant.

Joblom or not, you sure as hell seem to be the kind of guy who has a very idealized view of a very VERY terrible ideology (and that's putting it lightly), probably because you were born and raised in a country that never actually experienced a totalitarian regime, or because you're the kind of fool who thinks that education = indoctrination and has rejected everything they were taught at school. Or both. And frankly, this whole conversation is starting to make my skin crawl.

Education is indeed indoctrination. The United States of America is a prime example of that. It doesn't have to be, I wish our educational system was unbiased and apolitical, but it really isn't. There is a lot of propaganda and political bullshit snuck into our education books and the results of that ar palpable. Just look at the absolute mess the United States is currently in, and ask yourself how it got this far. Why do you think our generation is so incredibly left-wing and welcoming to socialism and communism, while at the same time having an irrational fear for fascism?

Truth is, you don't know the first thing about me. Just because I don't fall for the "fascism is evil" propaganda doesn't mean that fascism is my first political ideology of choice. There are better and more preferable systems out there than fascism (and no, I don't mean Nazism, I think Nazism is worse than fascism). I'm just not as brainwashed as most of you are and actually did my research on fascism, that's all.

[TheodoricFriede]

This wouldn't happen under fascism you know. All these rioters would be shot on sight if the USA was a fascist state.

Tearing down history, attacking their outgroup, insisting on power for themselves. Really interesting to see the horseshoe in action.

I am attributing this to stupidity and mob law. The absurd idea that if we just erase all our history everything will be all better.

I am not advocating for whatever the hell it is you two think I am advocating for.

Siding with Joblom does you no favors GAC. I have spoken to you outside of this group. I know you are at least a reasonably intelligent person. You are above this crap.

[Buffy]

We are now tearing down statues of Theodore Roosevelt.

Can we just skip to the book burning please? At least then all the pretension will be gone.

The really funny thing is that these idiots are acting very similar to the "Evuhl mega fascists" they claim to oppose.

Tearing down history, attacking their outgroup, insisting on power for themselves. Really interesting to see the horseshoe in action.

Yes, Antifa and the extreme-left in America embodies all the worst aspects of fascism, which I find incredibly hilarious.

[Buffy]

That picture is from Nazi Germany. National Socialism is not the same thing as fascism. It's a bastardization of fascism at best.