Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Don't think Buffy is Joblom tbh.

Do think that fascism is just as bad as communism and vice versa though.

[Buffy]

Don't think Buffy is Joblom tbh.

Do think that fascism is just as bad as communism and vice versa though.

See I can honestly respect that opinion. At least it's much more sensible than these Antifa buffoons who demonize fascism while at the same time promoting some form of communism, which is demonstrably a much worse system as it has all the negative trappings of fascism and none of the benefits.

[TheodoricFriede]

That picture is from Nazi Germany. National Socialism is not the same thing as fascism. It's a bastardization of fascism at best.

"That's a picture of Soviet Russia. The USSR isn't the same thing as communism. Its a bastardization of communism at best."

Heard the tune before. Only difference is the lyrics.

[Buffy]

That picture is from Nazi Germany. National Socialism is not the same thing as fascism. It's a bastardization of fascism at best.

"That's a picture of Soviet Russia. The USSR isn't the same thing as communism. Its a bastardization of communism at best."

Heard the tune before. Only difference is the lyrics.

There is nothing incorrect about that statement. Soviet Russia was indeed not communist. Lenin tried communism and quickly found out it doesn't work. So Soviet Russia evolved into something a lot more similar to fascism under Stalin, but the USSR wasn't quite fascist either. It was a weird unholy union between fascism and socialism, with a centralized market and state-owned capitalism, just like Nazi Germany was.

[TheodoricFriede]

Yes well much like most everyone else in this group, I have no interest in talking to you about the virtues of fascism.

Whether you are Joblom or not is irrelevant. If new people keep showing up with a pro facism, pro racism mindset than, perhaps, we do need to be far more strict about who gets allowed into this group.

[Buffy]

Yes well much like most everyone else in this group, I have no interest in talking to you about the virtues of fascism.

Whether you are Joblom or not is irrelevant. If new people keep showing up with a pro facism, pro racism mindset than, perhaps, we do need to be far more strict about who gets allowed into this group.

Seems like a rather knee-jerk reaction to an ideology you don't fully understand; and because you have a negative predisposition towards it, you wish to expel it and keep it out, which makes you no different than your average fascist or communist. In fact, fascism is built on that very notion; keep out the undesirables. So how are you any better or morally superior to a fascist? Think about that for a minute.

Here's a fun fact: the fact that everyone has such an emotional and knee-jerk reaction to fascism is the very reason why I decided to look into the ideology and educate myself.

You seem to have your head and heart in the right place, but you are blinded by post-World War 2 propaganda that still is present in our education system even today.

This picture is relevant:

[TheodoricFriede]

So how are you any better or morally superior to a fascist?

Its pretty fucking easy.

[Buffy]

Its pretty fucking easy.

Not an argument. Again, explain to me, how are you any better or morally superior to a fascist?

[TheodoricFriede]

Not an argument. Again, explain to me, how are you any better or morally superior to a fascist?

You are assuming this is an argument at all. It's not. I am not interested in arguing with you.

It is a statement.

I'm sure you could find no end of people on the internet who will support you. Go find one of them.

[Buffy]

You are assuming this is an argument at all. It's not. I am not interested in arguing with you.

It is a statement.

I'm sure you could find no end of people on the internet who will support you. Go find one of them.

It's a false statement and an intellectually dishonest one, and you know it.

If you're not interested in crafting an actual coherent argument, why are you still replying to me?

[TheodoricFriede]

I have nothing more to say. good day.

[Buffy]

I have nothing more to say. good day.

Nice how you quickly edited your post. I'll reply to the orignal post, though:

Because I have a bad habit of engaging with cunts.

Maybe one day I will finally break the habit, but I sure as hell wont be breaking it before I get the chance to call you one.

Did you pad yourself on the shoulder after writing that comment?

Why exactly am I a cunt? What have I done to deserve that label? Playing devil's advocate for an ideology you hate? Is that all it takes to be a cunt in your books? You seem like a rather close-minded individual.

I know you will reply to this, so lets see if your next reply will be less disappointing.

[TheodoricFriede]

Did you pad yourself on the shoulder after writing that comment?
.

No. As it turns out, I deleted it because I realized shortly after that I took things too far, and while you obviously should not be in this group, I should not have used that language.

Though it is abundantly clear to me i was right the first time.

[Buffy]

No. As it turns out, I deleted it because I realized shortly after that I took things too far, and while you obviously should not be in this group, I should not have used that language.

Though it is abundantly clear to me i was right the first time.

That's okay, I will accept your apology.

Why should I not be in this group? And why is it abundantly clear that I'm a cunt?

[TheodoricFriede]

Oh, no. I'm done. As I said, none of this is an argument. It's a statement.

[Buffy]

Oh, no. I'm done. As I said, none of this is an argument. It's a statement.

I don't see much of a statement, to be honest, yet you continue to argue with me. Are you sure you understand English and the meaning of the words 'statement' and 'argument'?

So by avoiding to answer my questions, I will henceforth assume you have no answer, meaning you called me a cunt for no reason, while I have been nothing but courteous to you until that point.

[Vol]

I've never actually observed anyone talked into far right positions. Appears to be a personal journey, because of the ruinous stigma associated with the history, there must be a strong impetus to explore beyond what the authoritarians allow you to think, and it cannot come from the very limited perspectives within the Overton window.

Whereas I've seen lots of people gradually go into the far left through the more traditional means of persuasion. Given the state of the world, seems the left's model is dramatically more effective, for now.

@Alien: You're describing what we have right now. No diversity of opinion, physical and economic violence will be used. A clear "Others." The cult of secular humanism, with the state as their God. There were weirdos having psuedo-baptisms at some of these protests, kissing boots of strangers, channeling fortunes into secular priests. Does it require more physical violence before it crosses the line proper?

[Buffy]

You all should watch this. No, this isn't a video promoting fascism, the guy is clearly anti-fascist, but at least he has done his homework and actually understand what the hell fascism means and what it's about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQbFgszFaZg

[Buffy]

I've never actually observed anyone talked into far right positions. Appears to be a personal journey, because of the ruinous stigma associated with the history, there must be a strong impetus to explore beyond what the authoritarians allow you to think, and it cannot come from the very limited perspectives within the Overton window.

Whereas I've seen lots of people gradually go into the far left through the more traditional means of persuasion. Given the state of the world, seems the left's model is dramatically more effective, for now.

Fascism isn't far-right. See video above.

I'm also not talked into fascism, I did my research on my own accord, and learned that actual fascism is nothing like anything my teachers have ever taught me in school. Again, it is not my first ideology of choice, it probably isn't even my 2nd or 3rd, but it isn't the demon that post-WW2 western propaganda made it out to be. I, for one, think Marxism and any variation upon Marxism is far worse. At least fascism works in practice and can be successful, we've seen that with Fascist Italy. The same cannot be said about Marxism.

I agree with everything else you said, though.

[Mazder]

Its pretty fucking easy.

Not an argument. Again, explain to me, how are you any better or morally superior to a fascist?

Not advocating for extermination of "undesirables" for one.

Not kowtowing to a figurehead and anything they say goes.

Fascism is just another dictatorship. Same in practice.
Follow the leader, anyone who doesn't is gotten rid of, usually by force and extermination. "Do not suffer the X to live" etc, etc.
You're "free" to express what you like, so long as you don't express something the "great leader" don't like. f you do they'll use their thugs to come round and dispose of you. You're "free" to make it in a society that thinks the same, acts the same, is dogmatic in their "joy" for being the same until the leader changes their mind, makes the thugs enforce that change and you're suddenly taken away for being "undesireable".

Fascism is not a "good ideology". It's shit.
I would take disorganised chaos of democracy over "you must be as we say otherwise you're dead".
Because lets be honest here, the "undesirables" is usually sifted out through bullshit reasons and usually bigoted in some form of another.

Enforced unity is not unity, it's simply a prison. And that is the only nice way of saying it.
Simply allowing people to express themselves and learning to accept others based on their differences makes one morally superior to a fascist. I would not advocate killing someone based on the colour of their skin. Yet all fascists have.

That's okay, I will accept your apology.

Why should I not be in this group? And why is it abundantly clear that I'm a cunt?

Because you advocate FOR fascism. Fascist by actions are cunts.
If you ally yourself alongside them you are also a cunt.

Don't like being called a cunt then stop advocating for a cunty ideology, it's that simple.

Or, fuck off to your own fascist island and you wont be called a cunt. You can advocate for fascism all you want there.
We don't want it here.

Fascism isn't far-right. See video above.

Ha, Hah Ha, HAHAHAHA.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh, you funny guy.

Nah, the dictatorial, authoritarian, regimented, suppressive and bigoted ideology isn't far-right at all.
Also water isn't wet, Uranium isn't radioactive, gravity doesn't exist and we are all made of cheese!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Tbh Fascism is far authoritarian but tends to draw things from the left and the right depending on the exact model you're talking about.

I've always considered it to be as far authoritarian as you can go but within 5 squares on the Political compass left or right depending on where you talk about.

Far right regimes tend more towards actual Oligarchies, actual Kleptocracies, or Theocracies though. None of which are any good either.

Something that never really gets brought up is that people would switch side from communist to fascist and back again during the Weimar republic and many later fanatical Nazis had gotten their start as knuckle dusting communists.

Of course you could argue that for many of them it was a survival strategy but there's no denying there was crossover.

[Sinekein]

Pre.S. for Maz: if you don't want the new cunt to bother you you can add him to the "foe" list in your profile and his messages won't display. Saves a ton of energy since you don't ever feel the need to answer his inanities. I don't think there is anything to be gained by debating a neonazi who doesn't even want to admit what he is.

I've never actually observed anyone talked into far right positions. Appears to be a personal journey, because of the ruinous stigma associated with the history, there must be a strong impetus to explore beyond what the authoritarians allow you to think, and it cannot come from the very limited perspectives within the Overton window.

Whereas I've seen lots of people gradually go into the far left through the more traditional means of persuasion. Given the state of the world, seems the left's model is dramatically more effective, for now.

The irony of saying that leftwing authoritarians are stopping you from embracing rightwing authoritarians instead.

Trump is very, very close to the far right in his demeanor and positions. Bolsonaro too. Both of them are in charge right now. They haven't "improved" their countries despite now having had time to do so. So yes, it's hard to sell far-right authoritarianism at the moment.

Meanwhile you still have people stroking the fear of a commie revolution despite the most recent example of a country taking a hard left turn being South Africa abolishing apartheid (and becoming rather centrist in the process) thirty years ago.

And the Overton window has been moved very much to the right recently by Trump in the US, so I really don't see what you're complaining about in that regard. Obviously when your discourse is more and more extreme with each year of your mandate, you will make many people go from "I disagree but whatevs" to "I disagree and I am going to voice my opinion". The media really hasn't changed under Trump, he is just positioned way to the right compared to his predecessors.

And again, since he's mostly a joke and a failure, it does not make the whole ideology appealing at the moment.

[Mazder]

Pre.S. for Maz: if you don't want the new cunt to bother you you can add him to the "foe" list in your profile and his messages won't display. Saves a ton of energy since you don't ever feel the need to answer his inanities. I don't think there is anything to be gained by debating a neonazi who doesn't even want to admit what he is.

Yeah, there is that option.
Or I could tell him to fuck off so his ideas don't infest the group.
Silence to it is as equal as acceptance to the likes of a fascist.

[Sinekein]

Vol defends free speech in that group and I respect that. But that doesn't mean I am forced to listen to insane ramblings of racial supremacist wackos. That is a line people I routinely disagree with in this very thread have never passed or even toed, so it's not even hard to check where the limit is.

[TTTX]

Oh, no. I'm done. As I said, none of this is an argument. It's a statement.

considering how you feel about Buffy, I suggest blocking him that is thing we can in our group.

[Alienmorph]

Education is indeed indoctrination. The United States of America is a prime example of that. It doesn't have to be, I wish our educational system was unbiased and apolitical, but it really isn't. There is a lot of propaganda and political bullshit snuck into our education books and the results of that ar palpable. Just look at the absolute mess the United States is currently in, and ask yourself how it got this far. Why do you think our generation is so incredibly left-wing and welcoming to socialism and communism, while at the same time having an irrational fear for fascism?

Truth is, you don't know the first thing about me. Just because I don't fall for the "fascism is evil" propaganda doesn't mean that fascism is my first political ideology of choice. There are better and more preferable systems out there than fascism (and no, I don't mean Nazism, I think Nazism is worse than fascism). I'm just not as brainwashed as most of you are and actually did my research on fascism, that's all.

I'm just going to skip the rest of your so called rebuttals, because you're essentially advocating for Mussolini with an Italian with a decent education and a well-developed critical thinking mindset. I just don't have the energy to give you a civilized answer you likely wouldn't listen to anyway.

As for everything else, there is no such thing as an entirely unbiased human being, so unfortunately education cant' be entirely unbiased either, yes... but your idea of "breaking free from indoctrination" is looking at equally heavily biased sources that just like to call people brainwashed and advocate for everything that ISN'T taught in school, and that share their views directly to the public, without any form of scrutiny, peer-review or fact-check? Are you a flat-earther or a young earth creationist too by any mean? I can literally visit a dozen museums, libraries and memoria sites backing my reasons for be anti-fascist, just in the surroundings of my city of birth. And that's basically a drop in the ocean. For you to be right there'd have to be a crazy-big conspiracy to produce fake or exageratted proofs that fascism is a very bad idea and that nobody ever managed to run a fair and prosperous society based on it, so if you want to claim something like that, you're gonna have to do better than posting a couple crappy youtube video and call me brainwashed.

I may not know much about you, but you strike me at not knowing much of anything in general, rather than a stunning and brave "free thinker".

@Alien: You're describing what we have right now. No diversity of opinion, physical and economic violence will be used. A clear "Others." The cult of secular humanism, with the state as their God. There were weirdos having psuedo-baptisms at some of these protests, kissing boots of strangers, channeling fortunes into secular priests. Does it require more physical violence before it crosses the line proper?

Which is why is so worrisome. Anyone whit some non-biased knowledge of history can spot the patterns a mile away... people making excuses for why censorship is necessary, why it's okay blaming everything wrong on society on this or that part of it, a "us vs them" radicalization of opinions... that's how shit starts to hit the fans, and it doesn't matter what side of the political coin you are or if your intentions are altruistical or egotistical, it's a slippery slope that leads to really bad things. If if it were something like a single company or studio becoming squeamish and overly censor-happy I'd be mostly just pointing and laughing at it, is how widespread thet kind of stuff is becoming and how willingly people are to look the other way or pretend it's "just a few radical and idiots" that makes it a concern.

[Buffy]

A lot of you people who seem to be certain that fascism is far-right really don't seem to know what "left" and "right" means. Which is understandable, since the left-right dichotomy has been completely bastardized in the west (especially the USA) to the point that it's become quite meaningless. People often choose one side and everything they don't like gets labeled as the other side. Especially in the USA, people seem to equate the right-wing with authoritarianism, but that has absolutely no basis in fact and is entirely based on Democrat and left-wing propaganda.

So, what is left-wing and right-wing really about, and why is fascism not right-wing? I'll explain it for you, though Cheesecake already did a decent job but I'd like to go more in-depth:

The left/right dichotomy started in France int he 18th century, when the French parliament voted on whether the reign of the king should remain sovereign (which means the king has absolute power) as it has been so far, or if the power of the king's power should become subservient to the government. Those who believed things should remain is the same were asked to sit on the right, while those who wished to reform and make the king subservient to the government were asked to sit on the left.

Since then, the right became synonymous with conservatism and the left became synonymous with reform. And while the definitions of 'left-wing' and 'right-wing' have changed over the years, at its core they still represent conservatism (right) versus reform (left).

Fascism is a reformist ideology at its core, which means it's left-wing. However, fascism is also conservative in some aspects, so most educated political minds label fascism as a centrist ideology or a left-leaning ideology with right-wing elements.

I'm just going to skip the rest of your so called rebuttals, because you're essentially advocating for Mussolini with an Italian with a decent education and a well-developed critical thinking mindset. I just don't have the energy to give you a civilized answer you likely wouldn't listen to anyway.

Sounds like projecting. I happily listen to people who wish to have a civilized discourse with me, but it doesn't seem like you wish to listen to me at all. Still, in the hopes you actually argue with me in good faith like I have been arguing with you in good faith, I'll give you a honest reply.

As for everything else, there is no such thing as an entirely unbiased human being, so unfortunately education cant' be entirely unbiased either, yes... but your idea of "breaking free from indoctrination" is looking at equally heavily biased sources that just like to call people brainwashed and advocate for everything that ISN'T taught in school, and that share their views directly to the public, without any form of scrutiny, peer-review or fact-check? Are you a flat-earther or a young earth creationist too by any mean?

Not at all. I actually try to diversify my sources as much as possible. It's important to understand when sources are biased and to understand what their biases are. A biased source can still be useful if you understand the bias behind it and treat it accordingly. Most of my sources come from anti-fascists, by the way, or political thinkers who are neutral about fascism, like me. You act like I'm some kind of hardcore pro-fascist and seem to be skeptical when I say I'm honestly not. Is it really so hard to believe that someone can in fact be neutral about fascism? Isn't that ironic given how many people proclaim to be neutral about Maxist-Leninism or Communism? Why do they get a free pass but the moment someone doesn't jump on the "FASCISM IS EVIL AND SUCKS!" bandwagon that person is scorned?

Think about that for a minute. You guys are entirely too emotional about this subject, and I don't blame you. Our western media has made sure to indoctrinate all of you into having exactly this type of knee-jerk reaction to fascism without critically thinking about it first, because they don't want you to entertain the thoughts of how fascism could work and work well, because it would be detrimental to them and their narrative.

I never said I was fascist, you simply assumed I am one when I decided to play devil's advocate for fascism. In actuality I'm neutral about the ideology.

I can literally visit a dozen museums, libraries and memoria sites backing my reasons for be anti-fascist, just in the surroundings of my city of birth. And that's basically a drop in the ocean. For you to be right there'd have to be a crazy-big conspiracy to produce fake or exageratted proofs that fascism is a very bad idea and that nobody ever managed to run a fair and prosperous society based on it, so if you want to claim something like that, you're gonna have to do better than posting a couple crappy youtube video and call me brainwashed.

You haven't even watched the video, have you? If you did, you would know it isn't a crappy video, but a very educational video from a professor who wanted to do a good job giving his students an unbiased, accurate and factual overview of fascism without emotional baggage, despite he himself being an anti-fascist, because his desire to be factual and correct trumps his negative feelings about fascism, and I can respect that.

At any rate, I specifically wanted to comment on this sentence: "fascism is a very bad idea and that nobody ever managed to run a fair and prosperous society based on it"

That's objectively wrong and if you really did your homework you know that. Whether Mussolini's fascism was fair or not is debatable, in my opinion it was fair at first but eventually Mussolini went mad with power and became a despot.

But what is not debatable is whether Mussolini's Italy was prosperous. It was absolutely prosperous. People around the world respect Mussolini a great deal for how he managed to grab Italy by its bootstraps and turn it into one of the most productive and prosperous nations in Europe in a very short amount of time. He made Italy self-sufficient in grain production and improved Italy's position on the international market, allowing them to import oil at a much cheaper rate. He also separated church and state (which not everyone sees as a good thing, but I do) and gave the Vatican City their independence they asked for.

The negative feelings about Mussolini didn't kick in until he allied himself with Adolf Hitler through the Pact of Steel, which is a pact he made out of necessity by the way, Mussolini did not like Adolf Hitler at all and the Nazi regime made him deeply uncomfortable, but he also saw how Nazi Germany was quickly gaining ground and he feared that if he did not ally with Hitler, the Nazis would come for Italy next.

Only after allying with Hitler did Mussolini's popularity around the world quickly start to decline.

Which is why is so worrisome. Anyone whit some non-biased knowledge of history can spot the patterns a mile away... people making excuses for why censorship is necessary, why it's okay blaming everything wrong on society on this or that part of it, a "us vs them" radicalization of opinions... that's how shit starts to hit the fans, and it doesn't matter what side of the political coin you are or if your intentions are altruistical or egotistical, it's a slippery slope that leads to really bad things. If if it were something like a single company or studio becoming squeamish and overly censor-happy I'd be mostly just pointing and laughing at it, is how widespread thet kind of stuff is becoming and how willingly people are to look the other way or pretend it's "just a few radical and idiots" that makes it a concern.

Yes and you may notice these worrisome patterns come from the left, not the right. Because collectivism is left-wing, not right-wing; fascism is left-wing, not right-wing. And believe it or not, I actually share your concern.

[Alienmorph]

And on that note...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-oJ75FY4Cg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq1UKNCblE0&t=77s

Two for one today, everyone, yey...

[Buffy]

I do not weep for the left eating their own. All it does is fracture them and hand a political victory to the opposition. Trump 2020 is all but guaranteed at this point.

I also wouldn't be surprised if these me-too allegations turn out to be accurate, since left-wing men -- especially feminist men -- are often sexual deviants.

[Alienmorph]

Damn, posted seconds before I did that other post. Okay, let's get this over with...

Fascism is a reformist ideology at its core, which means it's left-wing. However, fascism is also conservative in some aspects, so most educated political minds label fascism as a centrist ideology or a left-leaning ideology with right-wing elements.

I'd love to see where you get these definitions. Reformists? Fascism? The same fascism putting emphasis on tradition, old school family values (aka the man goes out to work, the woman stays home and make babies and meals) and is based on pretty much a medieval-style social ladder of The Leader-The Elite-The Paesants? THAT fascism?

That's objectively wrong and if you really did your homework you know that. Whether Mussolini's fascism was fair or not is debatable, in my opinion it was fair at first but eventually Mussolini went mad with power and became a despot.

But was it not debatable is whether Mussolini's Italy was prosperous. It was absolutely prosperous, to the point that it even made western nations like Britain and the United States look at Italy in awe. People around the world respect Mussolini a great deal for how he managed to grab Italy by its bootstraps and turn it into one of the most productive and prosperous nations in Europe in a very short amount of time. He made Italy self-sufficient in grain production and improved Italy's position on the international market, allowing them to import oil at a much cheaper rate. He also separated church and state (which not everyone sees as a good thing, but I do) and gave the Vatican City their independence they asked for.

The negative feelings about Mussolini didn't kick in until he allied himself with Adolf Hitler through the Pact of Steel (a pact in which they agreed not to attack each other in case a new world war would break out), which is a pact he made out of necessity by the way, Mussolini did not like Adolf Hitler at all and the Nazi regime made him deeply uncomfortable, but he also saw how Nazi Germany was quickly gaining ground and he feared that if he did not ally with Hitler, the Nazis would come for Italy next.

Only after allying with Hitler did Mussolini's popularity around the world quickly start to decline.

OhGod you did NOT just went there... oh of course you did, who are we kidding. The good old "Mussolini did good things too, he only went bad after he met Hitler". It's literally the most overused kind of bullshit the fascist apologysts around here like to use. So... let's go through it a bit, shall we?

Institution of an SS-like secret police named OVRA (Organization for Vigilance and Repression of Antifascism). Over the years of the regime, over 5 thousands people, including hundreds of women and minors too, were arrested, went through sham-processes and most of them were found guilty, and treated inhumanely;

About another thousand people believed to be dangerous for state and public security (journalists, artists and just people suspected of not being pro-Mussolini) were preventively sent into Confino, aka basically relocated and "quarantined" into isolated island off the coast of Italy, to make sure they couldn't cause any problem;

Omosexuals were considered dangerous degenerates and locked into ghettos, about 20 thosands people believed to be LGBT (of course the terminology used was not that but...) were also segregated away from society in borderline unlivable conditions. The islands of Tremiti were where most of them ended up spending the rest of their days;

Mussolini took the credit for several social reforms he had little to nothing to do with:

- Retirement Money: the peole of Italy started receiving retirement money in 1898, from a fund semi-backed by the state, so when the future Dux was in his teens and still hadn't moved a step into politics. The current model we run such things on was created over 20 years after we hung the bastard;

- Public Healthcare: achieved in 1947;

- Drainage and Reclamation of wild and swamy areas: started in the XIX Century, reprised under Mussolini in the 1920s... only a fraction of the original projects was completed, because he was already diverting money and resources to his war machine, but of course the regime boasted about it so loud it's one the more often "See? Fascism ain't that bad!" arguments to this day;

- Social Safety Nets: productivity bonuses were a thing... for the owners of factories and businesses. The workers were pretty much wage slaves, and the right to strike and to protest was revoked;

- Agriculture and Infrastructures: to achieve independence in terms of food suppply, basically the souther half of the country has been turned into almost nothing but farmlands, to this day lots of people in Italy keep on harping about how the people from our South are basically a bunch of useless morons good only for peasant work, something the royals that ruled before Mussolini also encouraged, but that was further radicalized under the Dux. The new infrastructures reflects this too... watch a map of our railways and highways, and basically everything under Rome (and on the islands) only has the bare minimum of coverage to allow workers and goods to come around. There's parts of my country that still look borderline 3rd World level because of this never fully healed dicotomy;

- Oil and other rare resources: while we do still have some amount of race resources in our contry alot of it during the Mussolini era came from the colonies in Africa. Mussolini fought a particularly bloody war to conquer Ethiopia, during which an incalculable number of people was killed, and gas-based weapons that had been banned in WWI were even employed. Also a great deal of italians died in that war and in occupying the region later, because Mussolini's rule of thumb with his army was "quantity over quality" and we had some of the worst tanks and weapons around at the time. This of course didn't play in our favor during WWII either, later on;

The Pact of Steel was signed in May of 1939, basically as a way for Hitler to strongarm Mussolini to join forces with him after he'll start his all-out war in Europe a few months later. All that I just wrote? It predates the signing of Iron Pact. And it's all stuff easily verifiable by multiple sources, including physical documents of the time that are still preserved and accessible to historians and pretty much anyone demanding to vison them. Yeah, next time maybe don't try to use against me the history OF THE COUNTRY I FUCKING LIVE IN.

[Sinekein]

So this little, private internet community got not one but two different fascism enthusiasts who routinely spread facts that are either false or totally misunderstood in huge walls of verbal diarrhea?

I am like phylogenetics, I prefer the solution that requires fewer coincidences and that't that the two nazis are one and the same.

[TTTX]

So this little, private internet community got not one but two different fascism enthusiasts who routinely spread facts that are either false or totally misunderstood in huge walls of verbal diarrhea?

I am like phylogenetics, I prefer the solution that requires fewer coincidences and that't that the two nazis are one and the same.

Joblom hasn't been around for a while so I guess he has gone elsewhere.

[Alienmorph]

I don't fucking care if it's Joblom or not at this point. You'll better believe this crap's making me angry. And nobody'll better jump up and be "See? This is why we need Antifa to fuck shit up" either, I'm sick to death of all these radical chic assholes, I don't care what side of the spectrum they're from.

[Sinekein]

Joblom hasn't been around for a while so I guess he has gone elsewhere.

He left once it became clear that his wonderful way with words was not enough to turn any of us into raging antisemites and racists.

Now that we are having racial tension again, you have that guy with an identical discourse that pops up out of nowhere (despite no one posting ads to get more members afaik) and tries to do the exact same thing, ie using totally faulty logic to try (and utterly fail) to demonstrate that fascism is the super best thing ever and the only real solution to the world's woes. The only difference is that he does not have the baggage of being considered a fascist already - even though it lasted for all of two posts.

So more than "elsewhere", I think Joblom just came back and thought that with a blank background and no one preventively ignoring him because of his history, this time we were ripe for the conversion towards his ideology of massive cunts.

Plus, I mean, even if I'm wrong and we were actually blessed with two separate massive fascist cunts, then I won't have any trouble sleeping knowing I gratuitously insulted one of them.

I don't fucking care if it's Joblom or not at this point. You'll better believe this crap's making me angry. And nobody'll better jump up and be "See? This is why we need Antifa to fuck shit up" either, I'm sick to death of all these radical chic assholes, I don't care what side of the spectrum they're from.

We talked about it on less important topics, but I'll mention it again: try and think about what you actually gain by interacting with this POS. Is it making you happier? Do you learn anything? Do you gain more knowledge of the world surrounding you? If the answer is a triple "No", then you can just Foe it and call it a day.

Hey, maybe if enough people do it, we'll have the opportunity to meet a third clone with a different name

[TTTX]

He left once it became clear that his wonderful way with words was not enough to turn any of us into raging antisemites and racists.

Now that we are having racial tension again, you have that guy with an identical discourse that pops up out of nowhere (despite no one posting ads to get more members afaik) and tries to use the exact same thing, ie using totally faulty logic to try (and utterly fail) to demonstrate that fascism is the super best thing ever and the only real solution to the world's woes. The only difference is that he does not have the baggage of being considered a fascist already - even though it lasted for all of two posts.

So more than "elsewhere", I think Joblom just came back and thought that with a blank background and no one preventively ignoring him because of his history, this time we were ripe for the conversion towards his ideology of massive cunts.

Plus, I mean, even if I'm wrong and we were actually blessed with two separate massive fascist cunts, then I won't have any trouble sleeping knowing I gratuitously insulted one of them.

yeah it's problem either way.

I don't fucking care if it's Joblom or not at this point. You'll better believe this crap's making me angry. And nobody'll better jump up and be "See? This is why we need Antifa to fuck shit up" either, I'm sick to death of all these radical chic assholes, I don't care what side of the spectrum they're from.

I agree, extreme people isn't nice to deal with which is why I don't reply to much to Buffy.

Kinda get the feeling we need to talk to Vol, because it's not good (to put it mildly) that one member is pissing so many people off.

Also I didn't mean to make you even more angry sorry if I have.

[Alienmorph]

We talked about it on less important topics, but I'll mention it again: try and think about what you actually gain by interacting with this POS. Is it making you happier? Do you learn anything? Do you gain more knowledge of the world surrounding you? If the answer is a triple "No", then you can just Foe it and call it a day.

Hey, maybe if enough people do it, we'll have the opportunity to meet a third clone with a different name

I don't like to escape a conversation, especially when it literally hits me so close to home.

I do believe I'll be done for good with this thread once this is over tho. You and I headbutted on a number of occasions, Sine, but I like to think I've learned a thing or two from our conversations, and for that I thank you, despite all the other times I've got mad. But if I have to come here an one side you have Mobius arguing "burn everything down!" and on the other some "Mussolini ain't that bad once you look at things my way" cretin, then I'm truly just getting my blood boiling for no fucking good reason.

Also I didn't mean to make you even more angry sorry if I have.

I don't have the faintest clue what you're apologizing for xD But thank you for the thought.

[TheodoricFriede]

I think we just need to get rid of this thread. And political shit in general.

It has caused the most trouble of just about anything. And if this group truly can not survive without a place for people to argue, than maybe it doesn't deserve to.

[Sinekein]

I don't like to escape a conversation, especially when it literally hits me so close to home.

I do believe I'll be done for good with this thread once this is over tho. You and I headbutted on a number of occasions, Sine, but I like to think I've learned a thing or two from our conversations, and for that I thank you for it, despite all the other times I've got mad. But if I have to come here an one side you have Mobius arguing "burn everything down!" and on the other some "Mussolini ain't that bad once you look at things my way" cretin, then I'm truly just getting my blood boiling for no fucking good reason.

Same honestly, I like to think I have compromised a bit on some issues - I don't know if it's true or wishful thinking.

But I don't think there is any shame in just getting out of a completely pointless conversation. There seems to be that perception that writing the last wall of text means you got the last word in and therefore are right in the eye of bystanders, but in the conversation between you and Fucko #2, I don't think there is any doubt as to what others here think (well, except Joblom, but apparently he isn't here).

[TTTX]

I don't have the faintest clue what you're apologizing for xD But thank you for the thought.

Childhood trauma from an old teacher, I generally don't like conflicts or angry people, so I feel the need to apologize if I think if I have don't something wrong.

[Alienmorph]

I think we just need to get rid of this thread. And political shit in general.

It has caused the most trouble of just about anything. And if this group truly can not survive without a place for people to argue, than maybe it doesn't deserve to.

Considering how "everything am politics" these days, perhaps keeping it quarantined in one corner is still the least bad option. Also if I argued for censoring such a big topic, after harping against censorship so vividly I'd be on big hypocrite, so I'm not gonna do that. I just want to take a heck of a long break from it, but you should be free to headbutt here all you want, if you think you need it.

[Mazder]

Some political discussion is one thing, but I think we need to acknowledge the fact that pretty much everyone here is against either extreme of the spectrum. Far Right, Far Left, it doesn't matter, we think they're both abhorrent.
Plus we need more than one guy moderating us as Vol can't do it alone and I really think the "open to all" is a nice idea, but in practice opens us up to shitty people, giving them a space to exist when we really should not be giving them a platform if so many of us are demonstrably against it.

[TTTX]

Some political discussion is one thing, but I think we need to acknowledge the fact that pretty much everyone here is against either extreme of the spectrum. Far Right, Far Left, it doesn't matter, we think they're both abhorrent.
Plus we need more than one guy moderating us as Vol can't do it alone and I really think the "open to all" is a nice idea, but in practice opens us up to shitty people, giving them a space to exist when we really should not be giving them a platform if so many of us are demonstrably against it.

I for one support that.

[Buffy]

I'd love to see where you get these definitions. Reformists? Fascism? The same fascism putting emphasis on tradition, old school family values (aka the man goes out to work, the woman stays home and make babies and meals) and is based on pretty much a medieval-style social ladder of The Leader-The Elite-The Paesants? THAT fascism?

Yes, reformist. Your view on fascism is horribly misinformed. And again, I'm not surprised. My views on it were exactly the same as yours before I started to educate myself.

Lets look at some actual fascist economic and social policies and reforms, shall we? I'll be looking at Mussolini's policies, Giovanni Gentile's philosophies, as well as Oswald Mosley's. I'm not arguing to the success of these policies or philosophies, simply that they are reformist. So what has fascism done that could be labeled as reformist?

They turned to a centralized and socialized market economy, aka state-capitalism; with subsidies, a social security net and trade protectionism. This was heavily inspired by Leninism, and in fact many economists of the time, including Ludwig von Mises, argued that Marxist-Leninism was the first iteration of a fascist economy. As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. Socialism seeks to abolish capitalism outright, while fascism is a market-based economy, even though it relies heavily on the central planning of all economic activities.

The social ladder as brought forth by fascism was not based on medieval feudalism at all, but in Plato's Republic. There's a huge difference between feudalism and Plato's Republic. Fascism promotes equal education for men, women and children, and believed children should not be loyal to their parents, but loyal to the state like their parents. Fascists also promoted equality between men and women, which attracted many suffragettes and feminists to the fascist ideology. A large amount of prominent feminists at the time became fascists when they felt the communist movement had failed them. A lot of feminists today try to sweep this fact under the rug, but that doesn't make it any less true.

During the rise of fascism, classical liberalism was the right-wing status quo. Communism was a reformist left-wing answer to the problems observed under classical liberalism, and fascism in turn was a reformist left-wing answer to the problems observed under both classical liberalism and communism.

OhGod you did NOT just went there... oh of course you did, who are we kidding. The good old "Mussolini did good things too, he only went bad after he met Hitler". It's literally the most overused kind of bullshit the fascist apologysts around here like to use. So... let's go through it a bit, shall we?

You might not like to hear it, but that doesn't make the statement "Mussolini did good things too" any less correct. You not liking a statement does not equate to the statement being false. Mussolini was no saint and I never said he was, but his evil deeds do not erase his good deeds. It's not a zero-sum game. He did evil, but he did good things too. The rest of your post does little to discredit that statement, so I will not go into it.

Now, the real interesting question is: because Mussolini was arguably an evil man, does that in and of itself make fascism evil? Some people argue yes, but I argue no. For starters, good and evil are subjective qualities. Second, not all fascists agreed with all of Mussolini's policies. Third, if we look at Oswald Mosley, we can see a rather different and arguably more benevolent form of fascism, one I'm personally more in favor of.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I still think everyone's being hyperbolic as shit about all this.

Fascism sucks ass and people should dog pile it for being the reprehensible shit it is.

But communism is even worse and still people will talk about it in better faith. It's maddening as someone who knows history and knows just how many bodies the two ideologies have stacked up like cordwood.

[Vol]

Here's where I'm at. We are an extremely small group of people, based on a fictional alien girl from a video game series, over a decade ago. This is the last stop for that group, I hope.

Because I trust myself and my ethics, it took a great deal of argument and pleading with me before I had to actually moderate anyone, and then more to force me to moderate harsher. I do not enjoy this at all, whenever it's necessary, and that I dislike using power is why I trust myself to have it. My principles are that free speech is of vital importance, but this is also a tiny group of e-friends, with the occasional member drifting by to say hello.

I truly, honestly do want to ban or silence people for expressing opinions, no matter what they are. I read what literal Maoists are up to, what they think about current events, anarchists, moderates, everyone. Big picture. Clearly, not for everyone, and not necessarily what this site should be. What I want it to be and what it should be don't align, after all. I took pride in this topic, dustups aside, being the one place on the internet left that I knew of where we could have these talks with ideological divergent people. Even Jobloms visits, contrasted against the normal flow, were interesting in how they provoked amplified reactions.

So, ethically pained as I am, I have to act if you guys all are demanding it. I would prefer you all use the Foe system first. Failing that, I can lock this thread outright. Temporarily or permanently. Or I could modify the topic focus, instead of politics in general, limit the scope to video games, or the US elections, in which case I would have to recruit an active moderator, which comes with its own problems. I'd want Raga for that, but she's on indefinite hiatus.

So give me your opinions.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I've always been of the opinion if you don't like what someone posts you can put them on ignore. Which I fully support people doing if they don't like what someone posts.

If someone gets out and out banned for posting unpopular opinions I would consider that unfortunate. As much as I despite Mobius' frothing fanaticism I've never once argued that he should be banned.

[TheodoricFriede]

I dont think we need more moderation. There's like 10 active people in this group.

I just think we need less in the way of things that promote outright negativity.

I mean ultimately this is a group united by hate. Which is probably why we get people like Jablom, who was a self admitted antisemitic and misogynist. Or new guy who may or may not just be a troll account.

This is why from day one I wanted membership locked, except in extreme scenarios. We arent on the bioware forums anymore. we arent going to get people who want to talk about the what Tali's asshole smells like. We are going to get people who are trolls or genuine bigots.

[Alienmorph]

I cannot even... I rebutted almost every major "positive" thing Mussolini is alleged to have done and all you have to say is "The "he did good things too" is still valid. Also good and evil are subjective anyway." No they aren't dipshit, not on this scale at least. Saying "I didn't like a movie" is something you can play the subjective card on. Bulding an authoritarian state that is in constant need of an enemy to fight on a foundation of dead bodies and overworked citizens isn't.

I'm officially done, feel free to pat your own shoulder, "free thinker".

[Sinekein]

I think the Foe system is fine. It's not gonna remove craziness from the world anymore than moderation, but at least it's left to everyone to decide what should or should not be tolerated. For the record, for me, only those who actually promote theories that include forms of racial (or ethnic) superiority fall in that category. I obviously don't agree with everyone else, but this is my personal limit.

But communism is even worse and still people will talk about it in better faith. It's maddening as someone who knows history and knows just how many bodies the two ideologies have stacked up like cordwood.

As someone who knows history and knows just how many bodies the two ideologies have stacked up, I find this statement idiotic. There is just no objective way to rank horror, depending on personal opinions you will weigh one thing or another as more important, or you will consider that something fits one of the two boxes or not, and in the end you can get to any conclusion you wish to.

Also, the difference is how tolerated both are is for me linked to 2 things.

First is original intent. Without even talking about implications or consequences or how to actually reach that point, a "first exposure to communism" would usually be "people should be equal", while a "first exposure to fascism" would more often be closer to "we are better than those people". The first one tends to make people sound nicer than the second one.

Second is historical execution. Italy and Germany in the 30s were close to "fully realized fascist states", aside from world domination, they basically managed to reach their end goal and enforcing everything they promised - racial purity, military power and dominance (for Germany at least), law and order, etc. But there has been no actual fully realized communist state that reached everything Marx wrote - which makes sense as states as only used Marx' heritage themselves, while Italy and Germany were led by two people who helped define fascism - so this still leaves people who believe that IF those goals are actually reached someday, then it could be a positive outcome.

[Mazder]

I still think everyone's being hyperbolic as shit about all this.

Fascism sucks ass and people should dog pile it for being the reprehensible shit it is.

But communism is even worse and still people will talk about it in better faith. It's maddening as someone who knows history and knows just how many bodies the two ideologies have stacked up like cordwood.

I mean at most there has been discussion on some socialist ideas, not the entirety of communism.
I do not think that such topics as universal healthcare and the like are advocating the entire communist manifesto.

And as we all know we're talking about one right now, fascism.
We should not tolerate talk of it in a supportive matter, if it is as reprehensible then we should treat it as such, and those who support it as such.

I dont think we need more moderation. There's like 10 active people in this group.

I just think we need less in the way of things that promote outright negativity.

I mean ultimately this is a group united by hate.

United by hate?
I would not say as much.
I think there are one or two who HATE each other, maybe three, but the others have disagreements and then get over it.

Here's where I'm at. We are an extremely small group of people, based on a fictional alien girl from a video game series, over a decade ago. This is the last stop for that group, I hope.

Because I trust myself and my ethics, it took a great deal of argument and pleading with me before I had to actually moderate anyone, and then more to force me to moderate harsher. I do not enjoy this at all, whenever it's necessary, and that I dislike using power is why I trust myself to have it. My principles are that free speech is of vital importance, but this is also a tiny group of e-friends, with the occasional member drifting by to say hello.

I truly, honestly do want to ban or silence people for expressing opinions, no matter what they are. I read what literal Maoists are up to, what they think about current events, anarchists, moderates, everyone. Big picture. Clearly, not for everyone, and not necessarily what this site should be. What I want it to be and what it should be don't align, after all. I took pride in this topic, dustups aside, being the one place on the internet left that I knew of where we could have these talks with ideological divergent people. Even Jobloms visits, contrasted against the normal flow, were interesting in how they provoked amplified reactions.

So, ethically pained as I am, I have to act if you guys all are demanding it. I would prefer you all use the Foe system first. Failing that, I can lock this thread outright. Temporarily or permanently. Or I could modify the topic focus, instead of politics in general, limit the scope to video games, or the US elections, in which case I would have to recruit an active moderator, which comes with its own problems. I'd want Raga for that, but she's on indefinite hiatus.

So give me your opinions.

Well it's kind of not. We're all kind of together because it was us for the longest time. There are other fans out there, if anything we're the last holdover of the group from the old forums, but the group has evolved past the character's namesake by now.

Free Speech is important, but many have spoken out against the singular. They have been outvoted in practice. It is clear when some opinions are against the will of the group.
Some ideas should not have a platform if those on that platform are outspokenly against them. We currently have a 5-2/6-1 margin depending on where GAC falls on the allow or not allow.

Honestly this shit is really more annoying to deal with on the website. A Discord would be much easier as we could just set someone to mute for a while as a "time out" while a vote is case instead of an outright ban hammer.

I don't like the prospect of banning people, but if we wish to pretend the notion of attracting others to this site then we have to think, is an advocate for fascism, or an advocate for communism, being allowed to spout their crap going to encourage people to stay, and if it does are they going to be more that support one of those two ideologies? Most likely all we'd draw is more fascists or communists. I personally would not invite any of my friends to this site if that is what they'd have to look forward to.

Personally I think one or two mods would be preferable as Vol mods the whole site and time zones are a thing. But I also agree we might not need it. The thread is a little too generalised but that's also kind of it's benefit.

I honestly do not know how to resolve the moderator situation other than to move it to better tools such as discord.