Autumn in sight edition: Yearly costs are all paid for, time to donate if you can!//DA4 concept art, Anthem revamp, ME HD remaster, hey, it's something

Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

PUBLICLY VIEWABLE.
Discussions and topics open to all, grab a soapbox and preach, or idly chat while watching vendors hawk weird dextro-amino street food.
User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 9th, 2022, 11:18 am

Vol wrote:It would be extremely difficult for me to hold that lying about lots of small conflicts and regime changes does not destroy credibility, so long as big lies are fairly rare. In that even if that were true, I would be entirely correct to doubt that big, obvious truths _are_ truths anymore. Like a reverse gaslighting.


Of course it destroys credibility. The question is whether "assume these people always lie" or "assume these people act like humans and thus screw up, act in self-interested ways, sometimes outright lie, while other times doing their jobs adequately or even well" is a more sensible starting position. "These people always lie" is just as inaccurate as "trust science!" or "trust experts!"

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 9th, 2022, 8:23 pm

https://schwabstack.substack.com/p/doctor-death

Interesting article. I can't see the whole thing, but the Twitter thread the author linked to it from went over more of the evidence. But the thesis is that the industrialization of medicine and the depersonalization of medical care causes more deaths than a general lack of care, at least for people not in immediate danger of death.

Assuming the strikes are not so brief as to be meaningless, that it isn't an issue of reporting deaths, and that emergency services are still available, what's happening seems to be that is more people die of malpractice than of anything else during a given period. I'd like to see a longer term analysis, where people who would require medical care on a regular schedule longer than a strike would register, since I can imagine conditions deteriorating over months and years instead of weeks. Which I would then want to offset against deaths attributable to malpractice after the fact, like opioid prescriptions. But that still leaves the elephant in the room, the people who died from medical care that would not have died in the same time period if they'd stayed home, and that's an unpleasant consideration.

"Country doctor, rooted in the community," is a beautiful sentiment, but I couldn't begin to imagine reinstituting what was an organic system with people and institutions as is.

Edit: Oh, and the consideration that people are probably far, far less healthy now, because we've been able to keep more people alive for longer. The industrialization of agriculture really did a number on heart health, after all. Child mortality rate is way down, fatal allergies (like I used to have) can be managed, etc.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 10th, 2022, 6:33 am

Don't remember where I saw it and I'm lazy at the moment, but I've seen data that the rate of medical error between the best doctors and the worst doctors is *really* high. So it's probably not so much that doctors in general suck but that the lowest 20 percentile of doctors really, really suck and it's very hard to tell which one you are going to get for things like major operations. One reason such data should be published and publicly available though doctors would fight such a thing tooth and nail. Knowing my doctor has been sued for malpractice dozens of times or knowing his patients have a 30% lower survival rate than other comparable doctors is definitely something a patient has a right to know.

It wasn't life threatening but I had one quack try to put me on thyroid pills for life after 1 slightly bad blood test when every other annual test for ten years has been fine and I have 0 family history of thyroid problems. Went to another doctor who told me to clean up my diet, which I did, and everything has now been fine. Granted telling a patient to overhaul their diet is a harder thing to tell them than "take these pills" so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the first doctor knew the issue was really diet and just didn't think I would listen.

*Edit* Additional thought I had on a paradox in this situation. The measures which have objectively had the most benefit for human health since the beginning of agriculture (improvements in sanitation and medicines that prevent childhood killers like worms and certain infectious disease) came about largely through mass action (a combination of mass activism during the Progressive Era and mass government infrastructure, research, and mobilization projects). It was one of the triumphs of the left-leaning image of ideal society, a marriage between progressive grassroots activists and High Modernist technocrats in government and foundation bureaucracies.

And yet the giant apparatus created by these bureaucracies has been supremely susceptible to cost disease where service qualify has stagnated for years while costs continually rise. Meanwhile, activists continually feed money into this whole system and shore up its reputation. (Think the giant industry around raising money for specific types of cancer or genetic disease research. Government grant money for biomedical research and obscene college tuition costs offset by student loans also re-enforces it).

We may be on the verge of another big leap in gene therapy for genetic diseases caused by a defect in just one gene (like sickle cell) but we are no closer for more complex diseases.

Maybe the reason the giant bureaucracies + activists approach worked before was because the solution to those problems was really quite simple and the thing needed was just coordination. But you cannot solve heart disease and cancer with improvements in coordination.

(Aside to mention we have actually gotten much better at treating some specific types of cancer, largely by identifying discrete environmental triggers like smoking & asbestos and reducing exposure to those carcinogens).

Book plug:

Image

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 10th, 2022, 2:04 pm

Image

Inasmuch as the "male" words are a lot of nerd words, I knew way more of these. All the female ones have to do with fabric it seems like. The only two of those I knew were sateen and damask.

Similar and fun. Words known better by Brits than Americans and vice versa:

Image

*Edit*

The Anti-C.R.T. Movement and a Vision For a New Right Wing

The geography of intergenerational social mobility in Britain

Yet more evidence for extreme stickiness of family traits.

*Edit*

Another side thought which might be the best succinct example I've heard for the omnipresence of the PMC chattering class and how their views dominate everything. Why the hell do I know so much about mayoral elections in New York City? I've never been there and live over a thousand miles away. Reason: a huge percentage of this class lives in NYC.

*Edit* One more and done with post spamming for now.

I'm about halfway done with Piketty book and there really are no bombshells here. There is surprisingly little moralizing in this book. It is almost entirely a straightforward data-driven historical analysis of how inequality has varied over time in rich countries since roughly the French Revolution. On those grounds, I have 0 bones to pick with it and I don't really understand why leftists go on about this book.

The most insightful and interesting thing so far has just been his division of inequality into two categories of "inequality of wealth" and "inequality of income." Inequality of wealth is "proles own nothing, middle class owns a house and an IRA, Bezos own multiple billions of financial instruments and offshore accounts." Inequality of income is "proles get paid $7.25 to work at McDonalds with no benefits, middle class gets $50K to work as a teacher with benefits, asshat VP of diversity, equity and inclusion gets paid $250K at Harvard and their kid gets priority admission."

I care way, way, way more about income inequality than about wealth inequality. It's utterly obscene that do-nothing managers and people who do nothing but shovel paper around all day get paid ludicrous amounts while people who do tangible work get paid comparative beans. The only wealth inequality I care about is that proles own no houses and retirement funds and thus can't afford to ever stop working or rear families. I don't care how many yachts Jeff Bezos has. I think I'd be fine with an actual or near 100% income tax for all income over about 200K. You can rear 2-4 children, own a house, and save plenty for retirement with a household income of 150K no question. Anything above that is gravy. And this is not even because I think the state would do something particularly worthwhile with the money. If it radically disincentivizes ludicrous pay for paper-pushers, they could throw the money in a hole so far as I'm concerned.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 10th, 2022, 11:20 pm

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/20 ... type=owned

The dark comedy of this is that you'd think English majors would be able to see deeper than surface-level in analyzing LoTR. So they're either well trained idiots, or, they don't care, and both are funny in a rubbernecking sense.

Ragabul wrote:*guys and dolls*

Inasmuch as the "male" words are a lot of nerd words, I knew way more of these. All the female ones have to do with fabric it seems like. The only two of those I knew were sateen and damask.

I know 0 of the female words, and had heard of nearly all the male, could vaguely describe most, and give a decent definition for a handful. So it holds, at least in the sense that French-sounding words don't get past my selective firewall.

I care way, way, way more about income inequality than about wealth inequality. It's utterly obscene that do-nothing managers and people who do nothing but shovel paper around all day get paid ludicrous amounts while people who do tangible work get paid comparative beans. The only wealth inequality I care about is that proles own no houses and retirement funds and thus can't afford to ever stop working or rear families.

I just watched (skimmed) a news documentary on why government needs to subsidize childcare. The people they chose to follow were a couple living in a major city, had 3 children, and neither had real jobs. The woman volunteered her time to a struggling start-up, the man was an art director for an NGO and made 6 figures, $60k after taxes. They lived in a $5k a month apartment, and spent $5k a month on daycare, so they had to dip into their savings every month to make ends meet. It was confusing and upsetting. On $60k take home, with a sane wife, I reckon I could happily start a large family.

Ragabul wrote:Don't remember where I saw it and I'm lazy at the moment, but I've seen data that the rate of medical error between the best doctors and the worst doctors is *really* high.

Presumably the doctors/nurses who are likely to strike, as opposed to those who'd put patients over themselves, are going to correlate with the lower quality outcomes. But I think everyone without investments in the medical industry would, if we're consigned to dehumanized medicine, advocate for utter transparency. Let the secret Kevorkians be ousted, let the prices be seen, all that.

It wasn't life threatening but I had one quack try to put me on thyroid pills for life after 1 slightly bad blood test when every other annual test for ten years has been fine and I have 0 family history of thyroid problems. Went to another doctor who told me to clean up my diet, which I did, and everything has now been fine. Granted telling a patient to overhaul their diet is a harder thing to tell them than "take these pills" so it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if the first doctor knew the issue was really diet and just didn't think I would listen.

Makes me think of the relatively massive amount of people, specifically white women, who are on a cocktail of SSRIs and other pills of the like. That addictive, long-term neurological medicines are handed out like candy to avoid naming the elephant is tragically silly. Though I suppose the ease of children getting HRT is like the chaser to the prison wine.

Maybe the reason the giant bureaucracies + activists approach worked before was because the solution to those problems was really quite simple and the thing needed was just coordination. But you cannot solve heart disease and cancer with improvements in coordination.

It's that. The impression I get from some of the guys who defined the arguments we're having now (Marx, Nietzsche), is that they got lost in the romance of the milieu, and assumed it would scale to utopia. We can't build Babel tho. Though I suppose if more people would bite the bullet on morality, we could make incredible progress on medicine.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 11th, 2022, 6:07 am

Vol wrote:On $60k take home, with a sane wife, I reckon I could happily start a large family.


I'd say assuming a willingness to move somewhere with a sane housing market, 60k would enable around 3 dependents in average middle class luxury. The single biggest killer is health insurance. Family plan insurance runs anywhere from $500-$1200 a month. Other than health insurance and voluntarily living in an insane housing market, the single biggest thing seems to be people unable/unwilling to not run up credit card debt. There is almost nothing worth running up credit card debt for. The only things I can think of are "if I don't use this to pay for this medical procedure I will die" or "if I don't use this to fix my car so I can get to work I'll get fired."

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 13th, 2022, 12:59 pm

https://www.cnn.com/2022/02/13/us/joe-r ... index.html

Rogan breached a civic norm that has held America together since World War II. It's an unspoken agreement that we would never return to the kind of country we used to be.
That agreement revolved around this simple rule:
A White person would never be able to publicly use the n-word again and not pay a price.


We are poised to enter an era where a White person can use the n-word publicly and not only survive but thrive if they portray themselves as a victim of cancel culture. It's a world where hate speech and violence are rebranded as "legitimate political discourse," and "public racism" returns to ordinary life.
Don't let the Rogan n-word controversy devolve into another tired discussion about cancel culture. This moment is bigger. If Rogan goes on with business as usual, all of us -- not just Black people -- will pay a price. Our country won't be the same.
This is another January 6 moment.


They believe in spells but not wizards. It's like a child trying to articulate why when some wrong has been done to him, it is wrong, but he doesn't have the vocabulary or understanding yet. It's more like the ancients that thought words had physical power, spells, than anything Marxists should believe in.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 14th, 2022, 9:46 am

Rogan breached a civic norm that has held America together since World War II.


Lol, what? Right, the 1950s was definitely a time when you faced massive public censure from saying the N-word.

It's more like the ancients that thought words had physical power, spells, than anything Marxists should believe in


It's the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which is debunked nonsense:

Image

*Edit*

When the Rage Came For Me

Excellent specimen in the genre of "nothing anyone like me has done could have anything to do with this." In this case "Murica=bad & Canada=nice and good." Let's just ignore the populist up-welling (on the left and the right) in pretty much every Western country that's been popping up for close to ten years now. Americans are the ones who succumb to the Toxoplasma of Rage, not us.

A Noxious Mix: Germany, Gas, and Russia

*Edit 2*

I Want a Political Movement That's...

In this same genre, but without bothering to write a giant WoT about it, I'd say my ideal political movement would be:

Anti-solipsistic (meaning there is a concrete reality which exists independent of whatever your opinions about that reality might be)

Local (preference for decision making and organizing at the smallest/closest level possible)

Communitarian (balances rights of localities, families, and historical cultural groups against the rights of individuals. In its simplest form this might look like "you have a right to egress from a community but not necessarily to ingress into one").

Pro market and work but anti-monopoly, monopsony, decadent extravagance, and mass exploitation

Pro-hierarchy and expertise but extremely skeptical of credentialism

Nationalist but Isolationist (or at least "minds its own business" heavy)

Skeptical, Gradual, and Empirical/Unsentimental in regards reform and change (treats grand proclamations of moral improvement with skepticism, tries new things gradually, accessing the results of such experiments with soberness)

Republican (not the political party, meaning a republic) but not necessarily democratic

Pro environment in a humans are "stewards of the Earth" way

*One more*

Just printed out a sample ballot because early voting in the primaries starts today in Texas. There are some pointless culture war referenda items which I'm really ambivalent and bleh about. I have actual strong opinions on all of these topics, but the hollow, pointless, posturing of these is so transparent that it's hard to muster up the desire to do anything but write "this is stupid" on the ballot and submit that. I may just ignore those and do my general primary bit of voting for the least crazy Republicans on offer. The Dems aren't winning regardless so it's more useful to winnow down the pile of crazy on the Republican side.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 14th, 2022, 10:30 pm

Let's check in on western liberal democratic republics, how're they doing toda-

https://twitter.com/nationalpost/status ... 7496970246
https://twitter.com/Justin_Ling/status/ ... 7644257283
https://twitter.com/cafreeland/status/1 ... 1571987456

Sou desu ka...



For the first time, I felt political rage: a sharp rise in testosterone, blinding and stupefying and violent. I am ashamed to have felt it. Clearly men should not be in power. Our hormones make us too unreliable. Testosterone is a hell of a drug. On my way home, I saw stragglers from the convoy lining up outside the Japanese-cheesecake bakery and the pot shops that have come to dominate Toronto’s urban landscape. I wanted them gone. This was not a healthy desire. The desire to punish, which is the dominant motive of both the left and the right in the United States, is fundamentally stupid. I hoped we could avoid it in Canada.

Behold, a castrati! These people imagine themselves to be foppish aristocrats in Candyland, I swear.


"If we quadruple down on what dead gay French/German philosophers said about reason and rationality, it'll be utopia."

In this same genre, but without bothering to write a giant WoT about it, I'd say my ideal political movement would be:

Anti-solipsistic (meaning there is a concrete reality which exists independent of whatever your opinions about that reality might be)

Do we all have meaningful, consistent, accurate access to it? Hur hur.

Local (preference for decision making and organizing at the smallest/closest level possible)

*snip*

Pro environment in a humans are "stewards of the Earth" way

I'm largely similar. Think: The Shire, but with the means of defending itself. A kind of voluntarily luddism, a sweet spot between the "natural state" and the objective benefits of industrialization. I imagine a lot of people, if pitched a vision of life for a late Medieval peasant, but with antibiotics and lightbulbs, might be inclined to listen. In realpolitik, however, something more similar to the bronze age hyperborean fantasies weirdos on Twitter sell books about. I think I could sell more 20-40 year old men on violent glory than westerners in general on a cozy cottage life.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 14th, 2022, 10:55 pm

Ragabul wrote:
It's the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, which is debunked nonsense:

Dammit, Raga, _again_ with the coincidences.

► Show Spoiler


Blindly find that, of all possible things, of all possible linguists, of all possible times.

(It's about NATO being upset with Poland for not doing their diversity stuff.)

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 15th, 2022, 8:37 pm

Something lighter, to cleanse the palate. The River City 0 remake included a toggle for the script. One was "Literal," the best current translation of the original game's script, and the other was "New," an updated script to incorporate the characterization of River City Girls into the girls. In a moment of intense irony, a few translators, and their sycophants, were unable to understand the intention of the words and took it as a jab against their work. Because it's becoming more well known that some translators intentionally alter scripts to mirror their uniformed personal beliefs. I.e., a boob joke becomes a patriarchy joke.

WayForward naturally is going to update the labels to be more clear, but I appreciate the comedy of incompetent translators complaining that they're being maligned, while failing to understand context.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 16th, 2022, 11:41 am

San Francisco voters recall 3 school board members

Faith in humanity slightly restored. If it's possible to get rid of whacky people like this in Berkeley there may be hope for sanity yet.

For evidence of how loopy these people were (because NPR glosses over it true to NPR form), here's an old notorious New Yorker interview with one.

Most pertinent excerpt:

► Show Spoiler


TLDR: While San Francisco schools were still closed from the pandemic, this committee wasted a bunch of time revamping school names to be more woke while having 0 plan for how or when to reopen schools. On top of that, they renamed schools based on outright false historical data and when confronted by historians or asked if they would consult historians, their response was basically "listening to historians would discredit the work of our social justice committee and undermine BIPOC people so we'll just keep assuming the false information is true, thanks."

Again, the issue with this stuff is not that some people are trying to address racism or whatever. The issue is that they are doing it in really dumb, authoritarian ways that have a whole lot more to do with social signaling than they do with actually helping people. Yanking the name of Paul Revere off some school in Berkeley for spurious reasons does 0 to actually help black people. But it lets people pretend like they are helping and are one of the good ones.

*Edit*

The Covid Policy That Really Mattered Wasn’t a Policy

Ugly, ignored subtext here that one of the chief features of these high trust societies is demographic homogeneity.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 16th, 2022, 8:45 pm

► Show Spoiler


"Future or Climate Killer?"

Allegedly advertising a public TV show in Germany, but the misanthropy needs no explanation.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 17th, 2022, 2:30 pm

I haven't really spared much thought for the eco-doom people. My thoughts for them I think are mostly twofold. 1) These are a bunch of people who were never going to have kids anyway and are now just using histrionics to get moral bonus points for something they were always going to do. 2) These are a crunchy version of the sort of people who went all in for Y2K and in 50 years they are going to feel really stupid and would rather just not talk about this.

In case anybody has one iota of seriousness about "I can't have kids because we are all gonna die" here's a good argument by somebody who absolutely takes climate change seriously for why this is not a good idea:

Pleaes Don't Give Up on Having Kids Because of Climate Change

(Incidentally, it's also a really terrible idea if your care about reducing income inequality and maintaining progressive social safety nets. Ludicrously low birth rates cause problems for all of these things).

*Edit*

Living (and losing) the First Culture War

About the transition from paganism to Christianity from what looks to be a generally really interesting Substack I just found. New weird blogs always make me happy.

Study finds elk are too smart for their own good, and the good of Utah

I could have absolutely told people this with no study needed. Me and my dad make a hobby of driving through various parks that are adjacent to land we hunt on just to look at deer. Deer absolutely congregate in those parks during the day. You'll see 5+ year old mature bucks standing around in the bald-ass open staring at you within 50 yards of the property line marking the boundary of where you can legally hunt. You'll never see him in 10,000 years in the hunting zone. He did not get that big by being stupid.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 18th, 2022, 11:34 am

Ragabul wrote:Most pertinent excerpt:

The language used here makes me think of a picture I've seen floating around, that claims to show empathetic association by relationship. More conservative people had the most empathy for family, friends, community, nation, in that order, dropping off at each step until you get to "creation in general." Then left-wing people were the inverse, they had the most empathy for existence itself, and steadily dropped off as the relationship became more personal. It makes sense, collective welfare vs traditional welfare. I'm not saying it was real, or that it does link to the word choice in this transcript, but it does make me wonder, because the bland politico-speak deference to abstract groups and committees for what should be personal answers has to come from somewhere.

If someone called me out on my stupid bullshit, in this kind of manner, I'm trying to picture how I would phrase it. Or maybe that I don't acquiesce agency to abstractions is why I never would or should have power over other people. Maybe if it's trained into you, it comes easy. As I've been walking a lot lately, I think about how I can dictate motor control to the subconscious while I check my phone for Pokemon. I hardly need to see the ground in front of me to navigate it nearly as well as if I was paying attention. Doing that with your professional work could be an extension of that, "willing to not have a will." There genuinely could be no one to blame, because no one exists in this committee, they've all subsumed themselves past the point of consciousness, and whatever gestalt nonsense comes out is no one's fault.

Again, the issue with this stuff is not that some people are trying to address racism or whatever. The issue is that they are doing it in really dumb, authoritarian ways that have a whole lot more to do with social signaling than they do with actually helping people. Yanking the name of Paul Revere off some school in Berkeley for spurious reasons does 0 to actually help black people. But it lets people pretend like they are helping and are one of the good ones.

What is the realistic worst case scenario of destroying, physically or metaphorically, all anti-racist groups, works, laws, and discourse, and letting people be as racist or humane as they please, versus the best case scenario of letting these groups, works, laws, and discourse continue? Or another way, what is the highest price you would pay to keep the principle of equality? What would you resign yourself, other people, and America as a whole, to if it meant we could at least not be openly racist?

(Apparently this conversation is old as dirt)
https://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2019/0 ... eaven.html

Ragabul wrote:In case anybody has one iota of seriousness about "I can't have kids because we are all gonna die" here's a good argument by somebody who absolutely takes climate change seriously for why this is not a good idea:

I tend to think it's a socially expedient lie anyway. The real reason is more selfish, but it sounds good to pretend it's virtuous. But of all things, the Smiling Friends cartoon cut to the root of this kind of thinking, moral nihilism specifically, but vague eco-doom in general. If you put a gun to a proponent's head, they don't want to die for "the planet" (abstract group again). They don't want to die right now, though infinite nonexistence makes any length of life irrelevant. So I'm not inclined to think they really believe it, though our lords surely do, and it's really dangerous to have outspoken, passionate anti-human rhetoric coming from people who are lying for clout. And with regards to the poster, government and media targeting a global minority already undergoing population collapse with anti-natalist propaganda, kinda sus.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 18th, 2022, 2:57 pm

Vol wrote: but it does make me wonder, because the bland politico-speak deference to abstract groups and committees for what should be personal answers has to come from somewhere.


It's largely this: Woke Institutions is Just Civil Rights Law

Come to think, I haven't explicitly spelled out a somewhat big shift in how I think about this stuff that I've gradually gone through over the last few years. I've been talking about it but never laid it out in an organized fashion. I used to think about this stuff as being revolutionary. "These people are Bolsheviks and they really seriously want to overthrow current society and replace with a very different one and they are willing to use violence and overt authoritarianism to get what they want." Now, I don't really think that. What's going on is much more depressing if much less threatening to societal stability. I can't really explain it well without writing half a novel. Apologies in advance for the hugeness of this post.

The biggest component is that we have an economic, social, and aesthetic elite who comprise somewhere around 5-10% of the population. They disproportionately occupy positions of power in cultural institutions, information dissemination institutions, and government bureaucracies at the federal level. They dominate pretty much all of these institutions other than the judiciary, (sometimes) Congress, and various foundations and media that are explicitly branded conservative like Fox News or Focus on the Family. All the top universities, all the top social media firms, most national media, Hollywood, all big publishing houses, a huge percentage of foundations, and a huge chunk of the federal bureaucracy are controlled by these people. Because they dominate them they have massive power to dictate the goals and culture of all those organizations and because those organizations have massive cultural power, they have a huge impact on culture in general. These people are not Jeff Bezos. Jeff Bezos has a ton of money but his ability to pull culture in directions he wants is very limited. The uber rich are actually massively uncool.

These people are *not* revolutionary because their power is very, very much invested in all these foundations and organizations continuing to exist and continuing to have power. They aggressively pursue the perpetuation of their own class interest at the expense of the aesthetic and economic desires of the rest of the country. They justify their position with the concept of meritocracy and high levels of technical expertise bestowed by education. This (along with technological changes) dramatically changes how they signal their class and social status.

Classical aristocrats were defined by *lack* of work, meaning they procured so much from their rents (from mostly land) that they could be gentlemen of leisure and never needed to sully their hands with labor. This was one of the chief moral justifications used for the "need" for aristocracy. "Life sucks and is grueling and everybody must work like a dog merely to live. Therefore we must have some small x% of people who are so fabulously wealthy that they don't have to work and this frees them up to do all the high pursuits of art, government, philosophy, science, and so on on the behalf of everybody else." Nobody pretended that such aristocrats earned their position in some way. They were set in place by God or the natural order of things.

Fancy things in the past were ludicrously expensive. It might cost a full year's normal wages from labor to make 1 fancy gown. It was very hard and expensive to get silk all the way from China and pay all the skilled craftsmen needed to make it by hand. Thus, ownership and display of ostentatious things was an excellent way to signal one's power and class. Medieval books such as the Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry are so beautiful because books were fabulously expensive to make. There is so much blue here because blue pigment was made from ground lapis lazuli gemstones which came all the way from Afghanistan and thus was particularly expensive. This is pretty much a brag in book form.

All this began to change with industrialization. It became exponentially cheaper and faster to mass produce things or import things from China or Afghanistan or wherever. Now the emerging middles classes could begin buying items that improved living standards but also that advertised their socially upward trajectory. In the Middle Ages, a fancy carriage with enough horses to pull it is a rare, expensive thing to own. With the Model-T, everybody gets to ride and not walk. Eventually, at some point in the 20th century, consumption became a mostly useless way to really set yourself apart unless you are buying something at the Trump golden toilets level, which only the 1% can afford. (Housing actually is an excellent continuing social signal which is one reason people will compete so feverishly for it and spend so much on housing space they don't need).

Concurrent with this was the evolution of High Modernism which I have already gone over before. Basically, a gigantic bureaucratic state appeared in the period from about 1910 to around 1950 for various cultural, economic, and security reasons I don't need to go over here. Suffice to say, it happened. These bureaucracies and agencies needed educated people to work in them which helped spur massive growth in universities and created pipelines of interdependency between universities, governments, and foundations. The people who ran these things accrued more and more institutional power at the same time that conspicuous consumption as class signal became more useless and that culture shifted towards high optimism about what technology, education, and massive government projects could do.

In other words, these people were true believers in progressivism because moral, technical, and social progress was the whole point of all these giant institutions they worked for and ran *and* they wanted ways to justify their power because it aligned with their class interest. The fates align and the best way to signal your social class becomes to show everybody that you believe the correct things. The "correct things" are socially progressive especially on culture issues. This works nicely to differentiate the PMC class because the rube lower classes naturally incline towards conservative cultural positions and the uber rich are essentially amoral Scrooge McDuck/Ferengi avatars (they will go with whatever social position ends up making them more money).

Social signaling by consumption did not completely go away for this class but it became decoupled from expensiveness. The chief way this manifests is using consumption to demonstrate your social values instead of your wealth. It's not *that* much more expensive to buy cage-free, free-range eggs or whatever, but it's still a great social signal. (Yes, yes, I know people buy organic for other reasons than just this. I *hate* this class of people I am describing and I buy mostly organic, non-processed stuff). Even if you don't believe this stuff in a moral sense, it still creates an aesthetic class standard, which is one reason for the gigantic class disconnect between the Republican Party base and the Republican party elite. The Republican *elite* are aesthetically crunchy cons who drink craft beer and eat organic Angus steaks while the base are Budweiser/Domino's Pizza people. The Republican elite are also much more highly educated like the progressive elite which is why they focus so much more on text and word than their base does which is very talk radio/talking head motivated.

To summarize this point, this 10% or so PMC class came to justify their positions of power relative to everybody else because they earned it through educational merit and because they were good people doing the correct things

The thing with giant bureaucracies though is that they massively defuse power which also means they massively defuse responsibility. If the Nile floods too much and destroys the city and lots of people die, it's clearly Pharaoh's fault. If the Mississippi floods and destroys New Orleans and lots of people die, it's the fault of the US Army Corps of Engineers for the shoddy work they did on the levies, and also FEMA for their crappy aid response, and the police force in New Orleans for being racist, and the media for sensationalizing everything and making people terrified of mass chaos and looting that mostly didn't exist, and on an on. This may be more technically accurate than saying Pharaoh controls the Nile, but it also means you can't point at any particular person or entity whose job it is to face the firing squad because this happened or to do something to make it not happen again. Every individual at just about every level in all those organizations can completely 100% accurately say "I was just doing my job in the way the bureaucracy expected me to do my job; I wasn't being negligent so it's not my fault." You can symbolically sack the guy in charge of the bureaucracy and put a new guy in place, but the new guy inherits the exact same machinery and the forces resisting change within the bureaucracy are *very* strong. Everybody agrees what happens in New Orleans sucks and we should not do that again, and yet nothing happens. This is Moloch, the mass coordination problem where everybody wants to fix problem X and yet we still never fix problem X. But coordination requires somebody or something to have the agency or authority to direct that coordination and collectivization and sprawling bureaucracy disperse authority. (To be fair so does anarchy. Everybody becomes an individual agent and 1 person can do 0 about preventing New Orleans from happening again. This is why hierarchy is necessary but bloat is bad).

To bring this back to the new elites, this means these PMCs get to justify their positions by their supposed merit and good works, and yet never have to individually be responsible for anything their organizations do. To go back to the very first article I posted, they can mindlessly apply well intentioned civil rights law through the horrible apparatus of HR departments or diversity offices or whatever.

I'll use Title IX (which is about guaranteeing equal access to education despite sex) to illustrate my point. Back in 2011, the Obama administration issued the notorious Dear Colleague letter. This basically told a bunch of educational institutions that if they didn't do more about sexual harassment they would lose their government funding. All these universities which are *very* dependent on government money duly freaked out and instituted much more strict policies around sexual harassment and tasked their labyrinth of compliance offices with doing this. One way this was done was by lowering the legal standard needed to find someone guilty of sexual harassment to "preponderance of the evidence." This standard means you only need to prove sexual harassment with 51% probability. You don't have to *prove* harassment happened; you only need to prove it was more likely harassment happened than that it didn't. Cue a giant flood of university proceedings accepting dubious accusations and students and professors getting kicked out or sanctioned with very weak evidentiary standards and utter lack of due process. There are dozens of examples of this happening from the last 10 years. I don't feel like fishing for them. Reason magazine has published many, many specific cases of it. Meanwhile, there's no particular evidence that actual rape has diminished at all or that real rapists are getting caught at higher rates.

This can all happen with the PMCs running these offices 1) 100% just doing their job and not being personally negligent or malevolent, 2) being completely convinced what they are doing is morally correct without being radicals or revolutionaries, 3) being completely convinced they are the best suited to do this work because they have 14 degrees in gender studies or whatever, 4) never having to individually accept responsibility for any fuck-ups. The process also gets immense cultural power behind it because its Harvard and Yale that are doing it.

This whole process explains a huge, huge, huge percentage of where whatever weird moral fad of the moment comes from and why it has so much power and won't go away even though 80% of people think it's stupid.

I'm not saying this 100% explains everything that's happened with social issues in the last 100 years, but it's a gigantic component of it. There's also lots more that contributes to what the PMC are doing such as the Rise of the Therapeutic and safetyism and the specific technology of the internet and how it spreads information. But I've already written an unreasonable amount.

Another way of putting all this is that the Great Awokening itself is Moloch.

I will address your questions about antiracism later. I just wrote a novella and I have actual work I have to do.

*Edit* One additional thought I will add. A similar process explains "systemic racism." Systemic racism does exist. It is also Moloch. The Awokening is a Moloch problem created partially by trying to fix another Moloch problem. (Cars solve the problem of cities being covered by horse poop. But now we have smog everywhere).

*Edit*

One more. This also explains why the rubes will sometimes ally with the Jeff Bezos class to fight these people. They instinctively understand that Jeff Bezos and those schoolboard people in San Francisco are very, very different. I haven't read enough about it to verify this but I remember seeing/hearing that the peasants in the early stages of the French Revolution remained broadly sympathetic to the king while being hostile to the aristocracy and clergy. There might be some similar interesting dynamic here. A giant tome on the Napoleonic Wars is one of a couple of books I'm considering after finishing the Piketty book so maybe I'll get an answer.

There's also another class of rural and suburban elites you could call the petite bourgeois that matter a lot in this analysis. They have huge electoral power but little cultural power. I didn't even get into them. These people have Jacksonian aesthetics and ethics for the most part and are the USA's original, native elite class.

Our native aristocracy (the Southern planters) went extinct.

This analysis broadly overlaps with Marxism in lots of ways which is one reason I read Marxists and have some respect for Marxist *theory* while thinking Marxist application is utter trash.

What is the realistic worst case scenario of destroying, physically or metaphorically, all anti-racist groups, works, laws, and discourse, and letting people be as racist or humane as they please, versus the best case scenario of letting these groups, works, laws, and discourse continue?


In our current society, I think these scenarios would be about equal honestly. We have mostly successfully expunged virulent racism such that even if you explicitly allowed racial discrimination or the like in law, Jim Crow wouldn't come back because the vast majority of people wouldn't want it. The best case scenario of the anti-racism infrastructure continuing as it currently is would be that it was useless at solving the lingering racial problems we have but also mostly harmless at the aggregate level. One would mean some some random cafes in rural Alabama won't serve black people. The other would mean some hapless person occasionally gets canceled. Other than those outliers, both of these are status quo scenarios really.

The specific calculus on this shifts dramatically depending on the society in question.

Or another way, what is the highest price you would pay to keep the principle of equality?


For equality before the law, I'd be willing to give up a fair amount. I'd be willing to emigrate if this went away and it was still possible to emigrate.

For equity, basically nothing. Luckily I'm not realistically called to give up anything for it because it can't exist in the way radical egalitarians want it to exist. It's a unicorn. As my giant WoT above argues, the people currently in charge are bureaucrats not revolutionaries, and there are no actual revolutionaries anywhere capable of seizing the bureaucracies.

For some materially redistributive but demonstrably effective things like singlepayer that everybody gets something from, I'd be willing to pay considerably more taxes.

For dumb things that try to redistribute respect & dignity (like affirmative action) which pretty much never work, I'm not violently rebelling but I do speak out against them, vote against people who advocate for them, and donate money to people and causes that resist it. Need a non crazy institution that consistently fights woke bureaucrats (and censorious Republicans) and often wins? Here's one.

What would you resign yourself, other people, and America as a whole, to if it meant we could at least not be openly racist?


We are already at the level where you can't be openly racist and have been for years. The only way the bureaucratic infrastructure can keep going is to constantly redefine what "openly" racist means. Since it's a bureaucracy tasked with finding and ending racism, it's very much incentivized to keep doing this forever. But as it turns out *any* bureaucracy tasked with solving a problem does this and there are tons of them that have other goals. Thus this busybody bureaucracy is yet another in a long line of busybody bureaucracies shoving its way into my life in various ways.

I would be willing to sell everything I own apostle-like and follow after anybody who could realistically deliver a society entirely free of such bureaucracies. Since communitarian Jesus or whatever is nowhere to be found, the question of how much DMV like dystopia I'm willing to put up is a good one. I cannot quantify it precisely. But less clear is why I should be more upset about the woke bureaucrats as opposed to, say, HOAs. There's a completely sensible series of arguments to be made that HOAs have done much more cultural and material harm and also routinely inconvenience or actively harm more people.

I'm not saying the woke stuff is small potatoes. It's not. I'm trying to illustrate how interconnected all this is and how anyone getting upset about *just* that is in some ways missing the forest for the trees.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 19th, 2022, 4:32 pm

Jeffrey Epstein associate Jean-Luc Brunel is found dead in a French jail cell

This shit is too much for even me to Hanlon's Razor.


User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 23rd, 2022, 12:42 am

To try and distill down that essay, I'm going to hone in on the class justification via institution idea. Because that is identical to what conservatives do, except what they hold to be "their" tradition isn't planned institutions, or however you want make the distinction. "My grandpappy taught me to X" and "I learned to do X in school" would be drawing from identical wells. Then the dissolution of self would be the nature of the institutions being honored.

In a traditional culture, you are obligated to participate in the traditions, because they need you to. _You_ go to the shrine, make the offering, and keep the shogun's peace. _You_ show up for the holiday event, you raise your kids to know the rules, you do x, y, & z or else you're degrading everyone else. Like Homer in that early episode of the Simpsons where he stops going to church, that attitude in a different time would be equivalent to what people pretend the January 6th protest was. Modern institutions also define class, which requires justification for the arbitrary nature of the wealth and comfort given the meaningless of most of the work, but there is nothing to participate in. Companies, school, government, media, they define expected modes of behavior, and enforce them with soft power, hence the malevolent, capricious standards of the times.

But the people and organizations in charge clearly, and obviously, are amoral at best. And we all know this. Has that been historically true in the past? I would imagine the high priests of the Second Temple really believed in YWHW, even as the Romans were storming the Holiest of Holies. I would think the French aristocracy really thought they were endowed with the brains and power to organize us numbskulls. How they espoused it, subject to lies and propaganda, but I wouldn't expect total irreverence for whatever they're representing to justify their position.

Since we're all human, and clinging to our own definition of tradition, left or right, I suppose that does make more sense of it. In lieu of faithful overseers, still need to perform the traditional role of a first world human living in a hyperrational culture. The conservatives, as I've said, are more centered around "That, but in the vague 1950s/60s."

My main criticism is that there is no agency in that theory. We'd be more or less bumbling along predefined trench lines. On an aggregate level, you can predict, but not the individual. "I can do what I will, but I can't will what I want." What I'm seeing is the pattern. Since we're all human, I sincerely hope, and operate on the same basic functionality, I sincerely hope, then as has been said, we're all doing the same thing. But for different reasons, to different ends. The leftist venerating and performing ablutions for the honor of public schools is equivalent in symbolic meaning to a rightist doing so with their family's pearls of wisdom from the old country. So we're locked into this pattern of honoring traditions, against each other, but no one is compelled to do anything (per se). If that is the pattern, then the tragic outcome is also certain, because it always has been, and if we're all participating in a collective narrative, that operates on meta-level structure, it's a very bizarre situation of knowing what has to happen, but also not being causally directed to not be a counter-pattern. I don't know what to make of it.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 23rd, 2022, 6:44 am

Vol wrote:To try and distill down that essay, I'm going to hone in on the class justification via institution idea. Because that is identical to what conservatives do, except what they hold to be "their" tradition isn't planned institutions, or however you want make the distinction. "My grandpappy taught me to X" and "I learned to do X in school" would be drawing from identical wells. Then the dissolution of self would be the nature of the institutions being honored.


This is correct and goes back to that essay I posted a while back explaining how to be a conservative in the modern West is really a statement about where on the liberal access you sit. When vanilla liberalism is ascendant, it's about tempering speed of change and the worst excesses of individualism. When *illiberal* leftism is ascendant like now, it actually means defending vanilla liberalism itself. It can also mean being opposed to revolutionary elements on the right. All of this is absolutely small c conservative because it's about defending and maintaining a set of institutions and traditions which are approaching 250 years old and have roots going back about 400 years. To be a reactionary today means becoming a revolutionary because you must overthrow the current order to restore the old order. A monarchist or Wahhabist today finds himself in the strange position of being a first cousin to a tankie.

Conservatism properly understood is an outlook on what conditions are necessary for human thriving and a defense mechanism against agents of chaos that would destroy those conditions. It thus isn't about being tied to a particular set of traditions and yet it absolutely doesn't work unless it's tied to *some* set of traditions that have existed long enough to demonstrate efficacy and create organizing myths.

If I was Chinese, I would be a good Confucian. If I was Athenian, I would invest everything in the polis. Since I'm American, I'm a good center-right liberal. None of these is necessarily *the* correct way, but they are all ways that clearly work at producing the honorable, industrious, and beautiful things that human life is about. They mostly evolve organically and are very difficult to repair once damaged or destroyed. I am against the symbolic Xiongnu, Persians, or Soviets that want to do so whether out of barbarity or well-intentioned stupidity.

Best summary of this I know:

Image

But the people and organizations in charge clearly, and obviously, are amoral at best. And we all know this.


Do we know this? I certainly get a whiff of undeniable hypocrisy off many in charge and most potently from the Republican political elite like Ted Cruz and Tucker Carlson. But to use the current archetypal benevolent technocrat, I do not get whiffs of hypocrisy off someone like Fauci. He is manipulative (by consistently and self-admittedly fudging numbers in pursuit of particular public health outcomes), vacillating and hard to pin down on specifics (as demonstrated by his intentional ambiguity when Trump was still in office), and happy to soak up public adulation while eliding his own authority and thus responsibility for anything in particular. This makes him the quintessential bureaucrat, but it doesn't necessarily make him a hypocrite. It doesn't even mean he doesn't care about public health and isn't honestly trying to fight infectious disease.

Another way of phrasing this is with the question "is the act of being self-contradictory always the same thing as hypocrisy?" I would define hypocrisy as "Boris Johnson gives a public speech saying everyone must avoid parties and wear masks because of Covid. The next day he goes to a big birthday party at Downing Street in which no one is wearing masks." Self-contradictory is the liberal politician who says they are against open borders but never fights for anything except making it harder to deport people. Or to come at it from the other direction, the housewife who says she isn't racist but then calls 911 when she sees a random black dude walking down her street.

These people are not amoral agents. They are guilty of the kinds of weird cognitive mind-games people play with themselves to convince themselves what they doing is right or okay. If the PMC is amoral, why are they so freaking culturally homogeneous? I called the 1% amoral, but it's more accurate to say they are *idiosyncratically* moral. They have so much "fuck you" money that they can pursue whatever moral system they like best with no other considerations which is why you get such a wildly divergent set of ideological figures as Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Gorge Soros, David Green, and the Koch Brothers. Another reason for this is that the 1% are mostly not hereditary so there's a lot of diversity in point of cultural origin.

The PMC is amoral to the extent that they largely align their morals with those of their class because it's in their self-interest to do so. But they are also much more hereditary than the 1% and thus many of them were raised in this milieu and authentically and organically soak this stuff up their whole lives. They aren't opportunistic converts. They are Easter Sunday Christians, but it never really occurs to an Eastern Sunday Christian that he isn't a good Christian.

I will admit that the particular brand of self-contradiction at vogue now is especially irritating and it openly flirts with hypocrisy. That vogue is snarky left illiberal fatalism. The archetype of this is when some dumb white progressive journalist tweets something like "What do you expect when you live in a country created by slave owners? We have to uproot white supremacy culture and center BIPOC people!" and then goes right on occupying a prestigious position at the NYT and going home to some segregated neighborhood after picking up their kid from Stuyvesant.

I also admit this is uniquely pernicious in a way that Anthony Fauci is not. Fauci erodes public trust by accident and ignorance. He doesn't *want* the CDC to loose credibility. The other *knowingly* erodes faith in institutions while mentally compartmentalizing the fact they benefit from them. There is something specific to the internet here and the way it rewards public performance. Once having "made it" via using a venerable institution like the NYT, individuals can pivot to selling *themselves* independent of that institution in ways they could not in the past because it's easier to get a mass audience.

Has that been historically true in the past?


Elites in the past behaved exactly like humans now and thus there was varying degrees of overt hypocrisy and competence depending on time and place. Lenin was the real deal. He absolutely believed in what he was doing. Meanwhile, there was very high disillusionment and hypocrisy exercised by Soviet elites by say 1980. Nobody believed this stuff anymore but everybody just kept going through the motions. A pretty universal description I have seen of these people's sentiment when the wall came down was "genuine surprise but no indignation."

Since I'm reading about China right now, there were periods when the giant state bureaucracy was well run, fair, and full of reasonably competent people, periods when it was chaotic and weak, and periods when it was despotic. There's many, many examples given by this author of Chinese writers taking Confucian duty of state officials very seriously and others when they become cynical and write long poems about how everything turns to dust in the end.

The late medieval and Renaissance church was of course riddled with a notorious level of rot and hypocrisy. The entire concept of chivalry was a kind of elaborate joke and while A Song of Ice and Fire is an exaggeration of typical "knightly" behavior, it's not really as far off as you might think.

The founding fathers of the USA were consistently serious, intelligent, and authentic.

The Roman Empire was basically an elaborate military Ponzi scheme that only worked by continually feeding soldiers into wars in the frontiers and promising them payment in land so it had to keep recruiting soldiers to get more land to pay the other soldiers with ad infinitum. A huge percentage of the time of Roman elites was spent dedicated to naked career advancement in the form of getting promoting through the ranks of the Ponzi scheme or assassinating your way to emperor or else buying sinecure administrative offices with bribes or oratorical flattery. It never would have occurred to these people they were being anything but virtuous and the empire managed to persist in this state for hundreds of years.

I more or less agree with the C. S. Lewis idea that different epochs are uniquely good at upholding certain virtues and uniquely susceptible to certain vices. I don't think any particular epoch is uniquely hypocritical or authentic. It oscillates. I'd say that the trend is probably that the longer a given elite persists, the more decadent they get, and decadence usually means some level of rot though not always ruin. When ruin comes, it's not usually because decadence directly causes collapse but because decadence renders them unable to respond to some threat, external or otherwise.

On an aggregate level, you can predict, but not the individual.


Isn't this just true of everything? There is no such thing as order if this isn't true. It doesn't mean individuals don't have agency. It can be perfectly true that I predict that licorice won't be the most popular flavor while having 0 idea if you like licorice. I can say confidently that way fewer people will profess a faith here in 20 years while having 0 idea whether any particular person will stick it out and keep going to church.[/quote]

"I can do what I will, but I can't will what I want."


It comes down to the conflicting ideas of what agency means. Is agency "I get to do what I want" or "I may choose to do the right thing despite what I want." It gets *really* complicated in the modern West where you are told "doing what you want" IS "doing the right thing."

So we're locked into this pattern of honoring traditions, against each other, but no one is compelled to do anything (per se). If that is the pattern, then the tragic outcome is also certain, because it always has been, and if we're all participating in a collective narrative, that operates on meta-level structure, it's a very bizarre situation of knowing what has to happen, but also not being causally directed to not be a counter-pattern. I don't know what to make of it.


Do you see an end point to these patterns? This might be our biggest divide. I see a lot of confident assertions from the farther right than me about where this is clearly going to go. And they are 100% correct at the banal level that every great empire that has ever been has eventually crumbled into dust.

Also, admittedly not entirely sure of your meaning in this last paragraph.

*Edit* I might chill on the pompous walls of texts for a while because these have been particularly ridiculous even by my standards. I admit that I will often just use this thread as a kind of dumping ground for my ideas because writing it helps me think it out.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 23rd, 2022, 11:31 pm

War it is then. "Special military operation to demilitarize Ukraine," as per Putin, but I can't imagine it'll stop at a few key strikes and taking a few ports/cities.

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 24th, 2022, 1:42 am

The Biden administration working hard to make even us Europeans regret Trump it seems.

I really doubt Putin would have pulled a move like this with Trump in charge, not because Trump was more convincing or frightening - although he was less predictable - but because it was very good for business for him to have a repulsive idiot in the White House. Like, I doubt Nord Stream 2 could have been finished under Obama, because it's likely the US diplomacy would have pressured Germany not to go through with it. With Trump spending half his time backstabbling the EU, and the other half insulting it, Putin suddenly didn't look so bad as a trade partner.

But now we got a new administration playing toothless world police, throwing fuel on the fire while admitting they won't go and help Ukraine, and letting the rest of Europe (and Ukraine especially) to deal with the consequences because now "it's China that matters". Meanwhile a major reason there is no EU defence force to speak of is that half of the 27 have been promised by the US to get help in case they need it, which means they have killed all attempts to start something of a EU army.

I'm betting Lithuania or Latvia are feeling super confident in Uncle Sam's help at the moment.

Honestly, if I was in van der Leyen and Borrell's shoes, I'd head straight to Beijing to sign some trade agreements with China. After all, if you can't rely on the US because they consider Europe to be an afterthought, they might as well try to make their citizens wealthier in some other way. And they might even be able to find an agreement so that China opposes Russia's further attempts at territorial expansion if they mutually benefit from the peace on the continent.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 24th, 2022, 12:14 pm

I'm not a military expert but from what little I have read part of the issue is that US military is actually poorly equipped to deal with great power competition. The entire current design of it is centered around the reality in which we were the sole superpower on Earth for 30 years and absolutely ruled the seas. Thus we could "project power" with things like aircraft carriers anywhere in the world. The goal was to be able to respond with maximum speed to smaller crises that were expected to pop up all over. The kind of opponents imagined were like Saddam Hussein. Nobody was thinking about land wars deep inside Eurasia with other great powers.

We have super extra doubleplus not been preparing for some kind of "take Europe back from the Nazis" level conflict. And now there are two expansionist great powers, one of which is already economically our equal and is rapidly approaching us militarily. The calculus on where to commit resources has shifted. Eastern European NATO countries expect us to defend them. So do Taiwan and Japan. The case for military adventurism in the Middle East (which was always poor) or defending countries we don't have a treaty obligation towards has evaporated.

This shift in thinking about China is actually quite recent, but the big problem is not the shift in thinking itself but that it took us way, way longer to accept that China could not be contained by economic soft power and that it would not eventually bend to a "rules based order." It was a bitter pill to swallow and we spent 10-15 years dithering hoping our soft power would magically solve the problem with no effort (and distracted by Iraq and Afghanistan) when we could/should have been preparing.

The empire is overextended and brittle. I'm not saying this isn't mostly our fault because it is. But it does change the calculation of what we realistically can and should do.

Maybe I'm just a terrible pessimist, but I'm not sure what we could have done in Ukraine that wouldn't just make the situation worse. Maybe promise the Russians that Ukraine would never be allowed to join NATO. That would have potentially given Putin enough of a victory to claim back home that he didn't feel like he had to commit to war to save face. But it wasn't just about NATO. It was also about Ukraine wanting to integrate with Europe economically because its economy has remained very static compared to neighboring countries that went for closer ties to Europe. To really appease the Russians, you would have to commit to Ukraine remaining an inert buffer zone likely mired in economic stagnation and governed by a pro-Russia puppet regime. This would be better in the sense that it results in way fewer dead Ukrainians but it's also still selling them down the river.

*Edit* Also related is that the collective West (both Europe and the USA in this case) utterly bungled helping the Russians transition their economy out of the Soviet era. They were quite cooperative in the 90s and the things we told them to do resulted in an economic clusterfuck. That needless to say has not endeared Russian leadership towards the West.

*Edit*

One of the more interesting things I have heard/just read though is maybe we can/should launch massive cyberattacks against the Russian forces and wreak havoc with their ability to maintain the war.

Another very obvious, mutually beneficial thing that should have been pursued a million years ago is USA selling cheap natural gas to Europe. We have a fuckton of it. We produce more than the Russians. We produced so much a few years back that it caused a global slump in prices and we massively shuttered production just to make it profitable again.

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 24th, 2022, 1:04 pm

Re: the gas thing, sure, after all it's your underground you're demolishing and we can't immediately ditch fossil fuel anyway. Not a long term solution though.

And I also agree with the cyberattacks. I fully understand the necessity to keep the moral high ground by not, I don't know, helping dictators stay in power, or having journalists murdered, or opponents illegally captured and deported (or assassinated). I don't expect the CIA to go around murdering non combatants all around the world. But at some point, you can't let all the dirty tools be used by your enemies only. For example, if a Western secret service managed to get a few leaders of the Wagner mercenary group that has been leaving a bloody trail in Africa murdered, I honestly wouldn't bat an eye. Because Russia never hesitates when it comes to having an opponent eliminated.

One issue though is that with the NSA/Snowden thingie I think trust in US cyber services are not at an all time high in Europe. So the EU would be super wary of a US cyber attack squad, and would take some convincing to do a joint effort.

But as a whole, I just don't see a situation in which Ukraine wins in this. For me, the only solution would have been for Europe to have a military force to speak of that could rival Russia's, but Germany has basically killed all efforts in that regard with the blessing of the US who keep selling a ton of weapons to their NATO allies - making them all too dependent on their expertise, and their intervention. My only hope at that point is that seeing the Russian Army at the Polish border will be enough to push EU leaders to start that organization, because it is going to be very complex to pull and will require a lot of goodwill on many parts.

But mostly Germany. And right now, let's say that they are not exactly in the best negotiating position between NordStream2 and a former chancellor basically being a Russian agent at that point. Problem is that Germany is easily the dominant country in the EU structure - the president is German - and I can totally picture them slowly making all projects die down to go back to the "status quo that's good for business".

User avatar
magnuskn
Posts: 1393
Joined: August 11th, 2016, 8:18 am

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby magnuskn » February 24th, 2022, 1:32 pm

Bit harsh on Schröder. He's pretty pro-appeasement of Russia, but he still clearly condemned the attack today.

We'll see how my government is going to react here. Nordstream 2 is important to us, but I presume it's now pretty much dead in the water.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 24th, 2022, 2:29 pm

I thought I read somewhere yesterday that some German officials already said it wasn't going forward.

User avatar
magnuskn
Posts: 1393
Joined: August 11th, 2016, 8:18 am

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby magnuskn » February 24th, 2022, 2:57 pm

With caveats. That was before Putin fully invaded. Now it's pretty much dead, IMO.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 24th, 2022, 3:52 pm

Sinekein wrote:But at some point, you can't let all the dirty tools be used by your enemies only.


I am 100% fine with targeted, underhanded tactics that actually work and are not being done for reasons of cackling evil. This is one reason I shed 0 tears when we blew up Soleimani. Likewise I shed 0 tears when we assassinated Osama bin Laden and explicitly didn't tell Pakistan what we were doing. Unfortunately, we also tend to do things like blow up vans full of random kids by accident too often for me to want to issue carte blanche on this.

with the blessing of the US who keep selling a ton of weapons to their NATO allies - making them all too dependent on their expertise, and their intervention.


Part of having a military that rivals Russia though is having a military industrial complex that designs and builds all the elaborate, expensive junk militaries use at scale. I know basically 0 about Europe's state of arms manufacture (other than there's plenty of specifically firearm manufacture and Airbus is the main competitor for Boeing), but I'm guessing there is not an obvious parallel to what China, Russia, and the USA have who all pretty much supply their own arms. And this is not an easy thing to build like setting up a textile factory or such. It's more like setting up manufacturing for advanced electronics. It's very capital and infrastructure and expertise heavy work which means lots and lots of money and time to build out.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 24th, 2022, 4:07 pm

@Sine: To take a guess, I imagine the initial plan was to have US forces in Ukraine, in some capacity, to act as a deterrent while playing hardball with Russia. But the unexpected collapse of Biden's support made that untenable going into a seemingly very bad midterm, we're war-weary and no one cares about Ukraine. You can see that in American reactions right now, where the subtext is that people are more mad that the honor of world order has been sullied than the human cost. So a deal couldn't be cut, as the populist right is warming to Russia, the sharp pebble in the shoe of "the west" that is also a white nation, and our leaders cannot be associated with that. Biden is locked in a position with nothing but sanctions and soft power hijinks, because there'd be a political cost to do anything more.

Taiwan must be worried as hell, because we have an even longer history of screwing them over, and China has us by the balls. If there was ever a time for elected officials to crown themselves. Also cements that a nation should never, ever give up their nukes on the promise of protection from the west. This is, what, the third, fourth time?

@Raga: I'll ask Lance to give his more educated opinion on it, but the impression I have is about the same. If air superiority and small, tactical squads are not enough, and a meat grinder is called for, there is no path to victory. There cannot be a draft, and there are not remotely enough front-line soldiers to fight it, even with dozens of support staff for every man. Sort of like how officers used to be (and still are) drawn from the nobility (bourgeois) without necessarily being qualified, except for the people who do the real fighting.

Edit: Phrased that poorly. Our fighters are very good, but we don't have enough of them for a serious conflict.

Maybe I'm just a terrible pessimist, but I'm not sure what we could have done in Ukraine that wouldn't just make the situation worse. Maybe promise the Russians that Ukraine would never be allowed to join NATO.

Do whatever Trump was doing. Failing that, don't play hardball when we're in our twilight, make concessions for the sake of peace, and not to fluff global economic interests. We still want to play pretend sovereign with a guy who wants to be tzar. There are almost no more elves in Middle Earth, and "I'm not touching you" cyberattacks and sanctions are ridiculous. You meet violence with violence, and if the cost is too high politically, then either our leaders don't really care, or they're useless. Given the specific conflict, it's both.

There's supposed to be a big natural gas purchase coming from Russia, through Ukraine, into Europe tomorrow.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 24th, 2022, 4:31 pm

Sanctions/financial warfare can clearly be crippling given the one over we are currently doing on Afghanistan. Issuing sanctions on oligarchs so they can't import fancy wine and iPhones is, of course, pointless moral theatre.

Likewise cyberattacks. Denial of service attacks targeting the website of the Russian consulate in Vienna or whatever is obviously stupid, but taking out Russian satellites or crippling their cell towers and so on would be tremendously damaging.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 24th, 2022, 7:39 pm

Ragabul wrote:Sanctions/financial warfare can clearly be crippling given the one over we are currently doing on Afghanistan. Issuing sanctions on oligarchs so they can't import fancy wine and iPhones is, of course, pointless moral theatre.

Likewise cyberattacks. Denial of service attacks targeting the website of the Russian consulate in Vienna or whatever is obviously stupid, but taking out Russian satellites or crippling their cell towers and so on would be tremendously damaging.

To what end?

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 24th, 2022, 7:44 pm

If Putin needs 15 years to recover after the sanctions for his little trip in Ukraine, that's 15 years he won't spend deciding he'd like to see Warsaw or Riga.

A bit sad that we are already talking about long-term consequences for Russia as if Ukraine has lost already. But if it can avoid an horrendous attritional civil war...

An issue I read about that might make those measures less efficient though is that many of those Russian oligarchs have their money hidden in various shady tax havens, who won't care about sanctions whatsoever - because if you start going through their books, then they will release all their books, including those with Chinese or US money being illegally stored.

But the Russian population is in for a rough ride. Thing is, I'm pretty sure they have experienced it several times already, maybe more than any other population on Earth, so I'm doubtful it will be enough to get them to stop what they're doing or to turn against Putin. On the contrary.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 24th, 2022, 8:00 pm

At the exact same time as this: https://www.politico.com/news/2022/02/2 ... m-00011065

Fear not the dark, my friend, and let the feast begin.

@Sine: There's an tragedy here in that the welfare of the Ukrainian people is the biggest concern, so our response is to attack the welfare of Russian people. The ones ordering all this and fighting, they'll be fine, it's common folk who gets fucked in proxy war.

Hearing Ukraine is fighting back, retook an airport, some "Ghost of Kviv" folk hero is being promoted on social media, no idea if any of it is true. Virtually nothing anyone is saying is going to be right now.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 24th, 2022, 8:27 pm

Vol wrote:To what end?


I'm not advocating for a specific strategy here. I was taking your statement that such things are ridiculous to mean they are merely performative. I'm saying that while they often are performative, they can be very real, with very meaningful meatspace consequences if you want them to.

Though apparently the Russians do have some kind of land based mobile missile system that uses satellites for targeting data. Again, my knowledge here is super limited. Fucking up the satellite targeting for those would clearly be useful and help even the odds for Ukraine. 0 idea if this is possible.

There was also apparently some high level discussion of fucking with trains with cyberattacks in some way and thus screwing up the Russian supply line to the front.

I don't think sanctions would do much in this particular situation, especially ones against individuals. If we went that route the thing to try to do would be to blacklist/freeze assets of whole companies who are particularly part of the war effort like military contractors.

There's also some pure troll value shenanigans I've seen proposed like seizing yachts owned by Russian bazillionaires which are currently in foreign ports. This would be useless as anything but a marketing/PR ploy.

There's an tragedy here in that the welfare of the Ukrainian people is the biggest concern, so our response is to attack the welfare of Russian people.


It is if you are a pure utilitarian, but obviously no one is. Everybody uses a mix of this and deontology. Otherwise, Ukraine would have just surrendered immediately and there would be no war.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 24th, 2022, 9:21 pm

Ragabul wrote:I'm not advocating for a specific strategy here. I was taking your statement that such things are ridiculous to mean they are merely performative. I'm saying that while they often are performative, they can be very real, with very meaningful meatspace consequences if you want them to.

I'm saying they are purely performative, even if there are meatspace consequences, because whatever we do cannot be a deceleration of war. So it's ridiculous that way, "I'm not touching you, I'm not touching you."

It is if you are a pure utilitarian, but obviously no one is. Everybody uses a mix of this and deontology. Otherwise, Ukraine would have just surrendered immediately and there would be no war.

That was what I was hoping for, yes. They have no allies, as a vassal-proxy-state of NATO, so an immediate collapse would be ideal, and then the persons responsible for the attack punished. Seems like Ukraine is putting up more of a fight than expected, so the violence will escalate, sadly.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 25th, 2022, 5:21 am

I dunno. I think symbolism on its own can have meaningful power that shifts what happens. This is one the chief reasons I'm not a proponent of realism, which is otherwise the best "official" school of thought on this stuff. Nations do partially behave because of ideology. It's just that the ideology itself is usually adopted for realist reasons.

Ukraine chose not to surrender. Pushing Ukraine to capitulate out of purely utilitarian grounds has potent symbolic value that very much shifts everybody's realpolitik expectations of what might happen next. You should take into account the psychological consequences of what you do and don't do as well as the blood and treasure consequences because how people feel and what they think will influence what they chose to do.

Mostly symbolic countermeasures or even statements of condemnation that don't decelerate war are clearly preferable from this perspective to actively undermining Ukraine in the name of peace. One makes you look like an unreliable waffler. The other makes you look like someone who stabs people in the back.

I've long had the position that Europe needs to start shouldering a considerably bigger chunk of the cost and responsibility for its own defense. If them thinking of us as an unreliable waffler spurs them in this direction, I can't say I'll be terribly upset about it. Them thinking we are not just unreliable but will actively undermine them to assist Russian takeover to prevent war is a whole other kettle of fish.

If you have 0 interest in America as empire and wish for us to build a Trumpian wall around ourselves and get on with being Switzerland, then the correct path to pursue is to have 0 opinion on Ukraine whatever and let Europe solve its own problems.

I don't care one whiff about the American imperial model of policeman of the planet or whatever, but I do care about stable liberal democracies for ideology reasons and because other liberal democracies are obviously our best allies. In a future world full of great power competition, allies matter a lot. Our current position of biggest most powerful liberal democracy on Earth puts a certain weight on our shoulders. It is the same with Germany within the continent of Europe. We exert massive influence simply by being the biggest person in the room.

*Edit*

There is something to be said for the very simplistic model of 20th century European history as "Germany, UK, and France trying to come to terms with the fact that Germany is now the most powerful country in Europe." And something to 21st century world history as "USA, Russia, and China coming to terms with China probably being the most powerful on Earth by end of the century."

Part of any effective policy assessment has got to be a realistic assessment of your country's actual power level. All states in the above are currently over or underestimating their power in various ways.

*Edit*

Attack of Europe: Documenting Equipment Losses During the 2022 Russian Invasion of Ukraine

This is one of the more clear cut cases of the utter laughable ability of the standard CNN/NYT/NPR type reporter to give you any information worth a dam because they know 0 about what's going on and what little they know they aggressively filter through dumb highly localized ideological lenses. I usually have a pretty good idea where to start to dig for information from people who actually know something worth knowing on a given topic but this one is a lot more opaque.

Breaking Down Ukraine Pretty good bird's eye breakdown of military situation in Ukraine. First 3 minutes is some talking about nothing that can be skipped.

Good Twitter Ukraine aggregating thread: https://twitter.com/i/lists/1483456727219683332

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 25th, 2022, 4:28 pm

It appears several European nations are refusing to take Ukrainian refugees, such as England and Sweden. If true, it has been dismissed as far-right propaganda.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 25th, 2022, 6:41 pm

Ragabul wrote:I dunno. I think symbolism on its own can have meaningful power that shifts what happens.

It can, in the sense that virtually everything we do is symbolic. But it's also quantifiable, within fuzzy bounds, the purpose and impact. For example, the difference between a woman slapping a man and backhanding him. So with a hard line in the sand, everything has to be lesser than fighting, and this is a war, it's symbolic retreat. So the value in fiddling with sanctions and billionaires' yachts is petty, even feminine. Better than rolling over and doing nothing, but saving face is not particularly honorable or praiseworthy. NATO (America) gambled on Ukraine (Biden's competence), lost, and are scrambling to pump up citizen spirit with Pravda, get us on the Ukraine bandwagon, we're the good guys, we're doing stuff to fight back*, we're in control, we're have the most morality points, woooo.

*Not literally fight

Maybe I'm being too cynical.

Ukraine chose not to surrender. Pushing Ukraine to capitulate out of purely utilitarian grounds has potent symbolic value that very much shifts everybody's realpolitik expectations of what might happen next. You should take into account the psychological consequences of what you do and don't do as well as the blood and treasure consequences because how people feel and what they think will influence what they chose to do.

To be succinct, so what? The symbolic and psychological "shock" of Ukraine falling means NATO takes a black eye. Are your master's interests your interests? Are you content with the state of the western world that NATO enforces? The only bad outcome is if this leads to more war. I do not think of our leaders, our alliances and organizations, as benevolent towards America, or acting towards any moral good to benefit humanity in general. I understand the emotional momentum of an aggressor starting a conflict, but that can't supersede the lifetime of malevolent nonsense we've been subject to.


I don't care one whiff about the American imperial model of policeman of the planet or whatever, but I do care about stable liberal democracies for ideology reasons and because other liberal democracies are obviously our best allies. In a future world full of great power competition, allies matter a lot. Our current position of biggest most powerful liberal democracy on Earth puts a certain weight on our shoulders. It is the same with Germany within the continent of Europe. We exert massive influence simply by being the biggest person in the room.

I think that the only way to ensure "liberal democracy," is to keep a balance of power between government and people, which is impossible if government is global. The idea that a government without borders or figureheads will "just go along" with the freedoms and principles of dead white men, is lubricous. All of our "liberal democracies" have become unsustainable, and taken progressively more extreme measures to feed the meter. It is mutually contradictory to keep doing what we're doing and to want to conserve what we are.

This is one of the more clear cut cases of the utter laughable ability of the standard CNN/NYT/NPR type reporter to give you any information worth a dam because they know 0 about what's going on and what little they know they aggressively filter through dumb highly localized ideological lenses.

There is nothing new under the sun. "Experts" are treating this like a cross between the Superbowl and a fairytale.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 25th, 2022, 11:01 pm

Kyiv's under attack, and the Ukrainian president has allegedly refused a US offer of evacuation. Impossible to know for sure what's happening, everyone is lying, but at least we know fighting is occurring.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 26th, 2022, 3:36 am

Vol wrote: and this is a war, it's symbolic retreat.


Sure but an organized one is better than a rout and escaping is better than surrendering.

Are you content with the state of the western world that NATO enforces?


No, but all that's necessary is for me to think all the other things realistically on offer are worse.

The idea that a government without borders or figureheads will "just go along" with the freedoms and principles of dead white men, is lubricous. All of our "liberal democracies" have become unsustainable, and taken progressively more extreme measures to feed the meter. It is mutually contradictory to keep doing what we're doing and to want to conserve what we are.


NATO is not One World Government or something. And while European integration is really bad on a cultural level from an individual nationalist point of view from within a particular European state, it's neutral to good from an American nationalist point of view. Nothing I just said forfends borders, nation-states, or very different styles of democratic systems. I don't really care how Europe shoulders more of its own defense. Pan-European army or more commitment to beefing up NATO from specific states would both work.

And again, all that's necessary for strategic alliances like this to make sense is for the other things on offer (China and Russia) to suck more than what we have on offer and for said sucky things to be expansionist. It doesn't even require some kind of serious commitment to liberal democracy or high levels of faith in our current system.

For somebody who is truly utterly done with the West, my uber progressive sister actually has the correct answer. She wants to eventually emigrate to some South American country in Patagonia where there is nothing but rocks and goats and world affairs mostly ignores it because there's nothing worth paying attention to there. (This is not a pipe dream incidentally. She is fluent Spanish speaker, been to South American many times, done medical missions and understands implications in not living in highly developed area).

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 27th, 2022, 3:25 am

One minor point in all this is that US intelligence services appear to have slightly redeemed themselves because what they were warning about did in fact happen.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » February 27th, 2022, 2:43 pm

People are refusing to purchase Russian vodka for bars, protesting ROCOR churches, and other similar things. Jon Stewart could not be reached for comment, but he was last spotted sobbing over a tray of Freedom Fries and apologizing.

@Raga: NATO is antithetical to liberal-democracy. Same as the UN, EU, WEF, WTO, any acronym jumble that has power across borders. They do not constitute a one-world government, as we can plainly see, but they certainly trend towards it. If we share common military, economy, culture, and people, then the case for nations existing goes away. Their existence entrenches structure beyond the natural vulnerability of being local. I don't mean solely in the revolutionary way, but even the mundane, practical way.

My ideal here, to speak metaphorically, is that if a small town sheriff is corrupt and cruel, and housewives baking pies with slogans on them and old men pestering the mayor doesn't fix the problem, the sheriff could go missing in the woods and few questions are asked. Whereas, these international entanglements are like that happening, then the FBI swarms the town to interrogate and arrest people for conspiracy, sedition, and murder. But if the consent and balance of the governed to the governor isn't a fundamental principle anymore, then it all goes out the window. A velvet glove of liberalism is nonsense, your sister would have the correct idea.

In a practical sense: The Allied Powers, NATO, they were all good for their immediate temporal purpose of dealing with a problem, and then needed to "resign their commission."

Re - Intelligence - They replaced a Russian puppet with our puppet, they're to blame for this happening.

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 27th, 2022, 4:49 pm

@Raga: NATO is antithetical to liberal-democracy. Same as the UN, EU, WEF, WTO, any acronym jumble that has power across borders.


Funny you include the EU but omit the USA.

Pretty sure I have no more cultural differences with, say, the average Swede, than you can find between the average person in New York and Montana.

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 27th, 2022, 6:52 pm

Vol wrote:NATO is antithetical to liberal-democracy. Same as the UN, EU, WEF, WTO, any acronym jumble that has power across borders.


So treaties are antithetical to democracy? Taken to its logical conclusion *any* agreement, even a simple bilateral one would fit this definition. And what of pan-generational binding agreements? What's the logical difference? I never got to vote to ratify the constitution either. Both end with the same outcome of severely limiting the ability of the governed to change what the government does. And beyond that the existence of official structures that bind across disparate cultural groups into some bigger administrative whole is at least 5000 years old. If cross border binding agreements nullify democracy, then democracy was always a sham.

In which case, we are an empire and Russia is an opposing empire, and it makes complete sense to secure our own zones of influence and chip away at theirs where we can.

I've said before that liberalism is evangelizing so it *is* imperial in that sense. I no longer consider the word "empire" an epithet, partially because half the people using it as an insult word can't even define what they mean and secondly because as I've already said a big, powerful state exerts influence and power simply by existing. When China or the USA sneezes, the world feels it, let alone when we actually determinedly set out to *do* something.

The hyper-local thing you are describing is a mode of life that went extinct hundreds if not thousands of years ago. The actual choice in front of everyone is how they will deal personally (and with whatever amount of political power they wield) with the permanent death of that world.

At what point of hypothetical aggression from Russia would you say some action on our part, military or otherwise was warranted?

@ us planting a puppet.

We have planted puppets or tried to plant puppets in various states in the past. (Again that book I mentioned before Legacy of Ashes). When there is little or no authentic grassroots movement on the ground, the outcome is usually one of two things 1) it blows up in the operatives face and a bunch of people get killed without the regime cracking (North Korean operations, Bay of Pigs, et al) or 2) the government is overthrown but the only thing that can maintain control in its absence is a good old-fashioned despot (Iran).

Euromaiden was not purely a US operation, which is no small part of why it was more successful than a lot of that other stuff I just mentioned. Russia is invading in no small part because of its success. We meddled but there was an actual authentic, powerful native movement on the ground to meddle in. You can certainly issue a blanket condemnation of US meddling in general, but it is simply not the case that we are singularly at fault for everything going on in Ukraine. (The mess in Syria is another one we are not singularly responsible for we get blamed for).

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 28th, 2022, 5:02 am

Big spate of Ukraine articles in this newsletter thing I subscribe to. I'm reading through them one by one and will post any that have anything half-assedly different or interesting to say:

First one goes over US dealings with Russians over Ukraine following the breakup of the USSR: Russia, Ukraine and the 30-year quest for a post-Soviet order

Vladimir Putin’s Clash of Civilizations

Broadly concur with this assessment of both Putin's and China's aspirations and desired end goals. Two things of note here.

1) The civilization of the "West" used to broadly map onto Christendom and specifically Catholic/Protestant Christendom but no longer does so. A divide between this to the west and Orthodoxy to the east was one of the proposed civilizational divides Samuel Huntington first proposed. This has broken down for several reasons. Namely the West has rapidly secularized, various predominantly Orthodox countries have come under Western orbit, and various non Christian states like Japan, Taiwan, & South Korea have also come into this orbit. You are going to have to find some other thing that ties this all together. The only thing I'm aware of on offer is the ideology of liberalism.

2) A failure of modern liberals (in this sense as opposed to conservatives) to think of the West in civilizational terms and instead think in globalist terms eschewing borders, ignoring real irreconcilable cultural differences, and steamrolling desire for localized cultural and economic autonomy is a huge part of the problem in various war and diplomacy failures over the last decades. This attitude is precisely what creates the "empire of lies" Putin is going on about where the West pretends it isn't imperial and that liberalism (the political system) isn't an aggressive, evangelical worldview while going around nonetheless acting imperial and evangelizing. The conservative position (as manifested in the neocons) here is less hypocritical in that it openly embraces the expansionist/imperial tendency in all this, but errs in being overly bellicose and wildly arrogant about what we can realistically achieve. Paleocon position gets closer to an actual sensible truth, but needs to be tempered with the realization that technology has rendered total isolationism untenable.

Lessons of the Fall: Revisiting the Collapse of the Soviet Union

Written by probably leading living American conservative intellectual in a magazine that was founded specifically to try to come up with some intellectual underpinning for a Trumpian worldview.

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » February 28th, 2022, 7:16 am

A failure of modern liberals (in this sense as opposed to conservatives) to think of the West in civilizational terms and instead think in globalist terms eschewing borders, ignoring real irreconcilable cultural differences, and steamrolling desire for localized cultural and economic autonomy is a huge part of the problem in various war and diplomacy failures over the last decades.


I think that in there there is a nugget of truth, and a ton of things crammed in that have nothing to do with it.

The only issue I see here is the "cultural differences" part, and only because nowadays indeed Westerners - and not only liberals, conservatives are equally guilty of it - are using morality to say whether another culture is worth exchanging with or not. That was not the case in the past. However, there have been dealings and even alliances between vastly different populations since the Antiquity because "my enemy's enemy is my friend" or similar objectives are not notions that appeared in the XXth century. François I of France was allied with the notably unchristian Soliman the Ist back in the 1500s. And there were alliances between Catholic and Muslim leaders before the first crusade before occurred. Or between Rome and other civilizations.

But conservatives are using the exact same rhetoric, they just tend to use religion instead of morality to justify it. Unless you consider the Bush administration somehow "liberal", the blame is to be spread equally here.

Trump was the only US president with significantly different foreign politics...and he came back to the 1940-1950s conservatives way, you know, the ones who put all those madmen in charge in South America, or allowed dictators such as Francisco Franco or Salazar to stay in power because, yes they were killing their population by the thousands (fun fact: studies show that Spain is the country with the second largest number of mass graves in the world after Cambodia), but most of them were probably left-wing or even communist sympathizers, so it all evened out.

So calling the current diplomacy a "failure of liberals" to somehow praise the way conservatives did the job is just bollocks of the highest order. To me that's like hearing "It was wrong of you to punch this man. No, you should have used a baseball bat instead."

User avatar
Ragabul
Posts: 679
Joined: January 6th, 2021, 3:27 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Ragabul » February 28th, 2022, 7:45 am

Thought I made it clear I was placing blame at feet of both the rosy understanding of trans-border globalism that left-leaners put forward post Soviet union *and* the neocons, who have been far and above the dominant strain in conservative thought in the West in the last 30 years. To say paleocons are closer to correct is not to exonerate the actual conservatives in power because paleocons are obscure and powerless.

Right libertarians are also part of conservative coalition that is to blame, but they also aren't conservatives in any real historical sense. They are radical philosophical liberals who hate the welfare state. They allied with the traditional right mostly for expedience reasons because of the USSR. To say they are conservatives is roughly on par with saying that socialists are liberals. Libertarians can take a conservative position in the sense that they might want to resist the expansion of the welfare state in favor of a more laissez-faire older position, but they are not philosophically conservative. On the contrary, they tend to be gung-ho on technological/economic progress and individual rights over collective rights and pro individual expression over cultural traditions.

This is actually something that gets missed a lot. In American context, left of center stuff is mostly a coalition of identity groups (racial minorities, sexual minorities, etc.) under a decidedly liberal umbrella. There is not much ideological turmoil in recent decades which is one reason the recent idealogical squabbling on that side of the fence is so noteworthy. The right is a coalition of wildly different ideologies from free market capitalists, to social conservatives, to various species of foreign policy hawks, to white identitarians, to the regional coalition that is the South. These are overtly contradictory in various ways and they've stayed stuck together mostly for expedience. The old anti-Soviet conservatism was usually described as a "three legged stool" and each leg was explicitly ideological: anti-communism, supply-side economics, and social conservatives. No small part of chaos on the right is because after the fall of the USSR, it was less clear why all this wildly divergent stuff should stick together.

*Edit*

I'm also in no way precluding alliances or trade agreements or what have you between states with highly divergent cultures. This is clearly possible. But the only way to do it is with realpolitik. This is the nature of our alliance with Saudi Arabia. To come at it either with the mindset of horse-trading and haggling in a marketplace (we are not here to be friends; this is purely transactional) or to be blunt about your imperial ambitions and able to back up those ambitions in a way the other guy understands and won't fuck with. "We have your back even though you really don't matter to us in any significant realpolitik way" requires some kind of cultural/ideological affinity. The reason everybody is freaking about Ukraine but didn't care when Azerbaijan started beating up on Armenia or super cared when China seized Hong Kong but only anemically cares about Uighurs is largely down to this perception of a cultural/ideological affinity we share with one and not the other. The affinity in this case is liberalism.

More:

Book recommendations on Ukraine and Russia

Law, Justice, and the Russia-Ukraine Conflict
Makes argument for why Ukrainian side is the least wrong side (Reason magazine is libertarian)

The Debatable Land #13: War in Europe
Pondering if Russia has bit off more than it can chew

Just weird and interesting: The Case for the Austro-Hungarian Empire

Also for just non-standard take is this guy who is Orthodox Christian American paleoconservative currently living in Budapest.

Some Scottish TV dude I know 0 about also accidentally explaining paleocon position well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CZv7OMgytE

*Edit* One more additional thought on affinity towards Hong Kong/Ukraine. It wasn't just because of a perception that these are liberal but also because we saw/see mass images of revolutionary resistance to illiberal forces. Liberalism is revolutionary and evangelizing as I've said so this stuff stokes us. It is like holy war.

More speculation Russia may have bit off more than it can chew

And finally Tanner Greer post on this stuff. He is hands down the dude I trust most on foreign policy stuff, but he also posts at the speed of smell and only writes like 1 article every 10 days if you are lucky.

User avatar
Vol
Living Ancestor
Posts: 5651
Joined: August 5th, 2016, 5:55 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Vol » March 1st, 2022, 1:16 pm

Sinekein wrote:Funny you include the EU but omit the USA.

Pretty sure I have no more cultural differences with, say, the average Swede, than you can find between the average person in New York and Montana.

The USA is the financial and manpower backbone of all of them, we're implicitly the most at fault. We have no business being a superpower, and trying to retroactively mold us into one, because we are, does not work. Exporting that to the world has brought an immense amount of material comfort to people, and been ruinous to everything else.

So it's not bad that you and an average Swede are very alike, or that an average techbro and I live on alien worlds, but the reason why that is the case is bad.

Ragabul wrote:So treaties are antithetical to democracy? Taken to its logical conclusion *any* agreement, even a simple bilateral one would fit this definition.

They must either reinforce it, harm it, or have no effect. To define "democracy" loose enough to fit our republic, has the number and nature of treaties we're bound by helped, harmed, or had no effect on the spirit and practical effect of democracy?

I never got to vote to ratify the constitution either.

Under the Constitution, and not what man has made of it, what are you obligated to do or not do if you disagree with its ratification?

If cross border binding agreements nullify democracy, then democracy was always a sham.

Democracy isn't a real, present abstract, it's a philosophical ideal (for some) that we can strive for or against. You don't "have" democracy, you have degrees of it, and you head more or less away, same with any possible system. We don't manifest monarchism, anarchism, communism, any -ism, fully as defined or conceived of.

A group of political prisoners in a North Korean prison camp can have a pure democracy among themselves, an ad hoc republic among all the prisoners, socialism as the prison, and monarchy as the country. They are all pushing and pulling against each other at any given time. And I'm saying, right now in America, we the people are the political prisoners, and the monarchy is faceless international organizations and alliances.

The hyper-local thing you are describing is a mode of life that went extinct hundreds if not thousands of years ago. The actual choice in front of everyone is how they will deal personally (and with whatever amount of political power they wield) with the permanent death of that world.

An overgrown fence in the middle of a field should be torn down then?

At what point of hypothetical aggression from Russia would you say some action on our part, military or otherwise was warranted?

I don't know. If they attacked us directly, obviously. But international aggression, military or otherwise, I'm not sure. When the cost in inaction is worth getting many people killed.

You can certainly issue a blanket condemnation of US meddling in general, but it is simply not the case that we are singularly at fault for everything going on in Ukraine. (The mess in Syria is another one we are not singularly responsible for we get blamed for).

If the US had made it clear we were against regime change in Ukraine, publicly and privately, would there be a war in Ukraine right now?

User avatar
FrozenShadow
Posts: 655
Joined: August 15th, 2016, 2:38 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby FrozenShadow » March 1st, 2022, 4:01 pm

Damn, we will have really damn rough times ahead. Russia and Kremlin seemingly has clear view of the new world order and occupation of Ukraine was suppose to be first part of it. Their propaganda outlet Ria Novosti realease article on the weekend that was planned to celebrate victory on Ukraine and that it joined to new Russian lead world order. Granted, it was rather quickly taken down as it didn't fit the reality. Luckily internet archive saved it.

However it, it's really damn horrible read, even if you would certainly laugh at its ridiculousness at first. But sadly, it seems to be something that majority of russian might actually believe.

Here the link for english translation. https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-world-of-putin-an-article-by-the-propaganda-publication-ria-novosti-which-was-to-be-published-after-the-occupation-of-ukraine/

Yes, it's for Kremlin propaganda outlet, but horrid part is this it fits perfect for the elective historic domestic and foreign policy that Putin and co had been slowly building for years in Russia. In one hand this (with the general view of Kremlin politics) seems to show that, Russia is now doing imperialistic route, in which they're trying live in the past and return to their old historic borders in Europe. Worst past, this "too early" released article seems to explain, why Russia had already threaten West and Nato especially with "nuclear options". Russia sees Ukraine matter totally internal matter, where no else should've any right to intervene.

Of course, it's not so and the above things also shows that Kremlin had started to believe their own propagandist views and have failed to realize that the world has permanently changed. Ukraine defiance and seeming unification of EU (and rest of western world) being example of this.However all of this shows that as long as Putin and Co. are in charge, Russia seems to be seriously ready to wage war against the non-Nato countries for sure and maybe even against Nato too.

And worst of all, if this article here is any indication of Kremlins future plans, my country of Finland will get attacked too in the near future, as we were part of this historific Russia before Soviet era started and the old Russia become divided, something that Putin is now after. Guess I have to hope that Russia gets so beaten in Ukraine/drawn in guarilla war in there that Russia have no time to come here.

User avatar
Sinekein
Posts: 1396
Joined: January 10th, 2018, 12:11 pm

Re: Politics/Slapfights - Ancient history to modern day!

Postby Sinekein » March 1st, 2022, 5:02 pm

FrozenShadow wrote:Here the link for english translation. https://mil.in.ua/en/news/brave-new-world-of-putin-an-article-by-the-propaganda-publication-ria-novosti-which-was-to-be-published-after-the-occupation-of-ukraine/

Yes, it's for Kremlin propaganda outlet, but horrid part is this it fits perfect for the elective historic domestic and foreign policy that Putin and co had been slowly building for years in Russia. In one hand this (with the general view of Kremlin politics) seems to show that, Russia is now doing imperialistic route, in which they're trying live in the past and return to their old historic borders in Europe. Worst past, this "too early" released article seems to explain, why Russia had already threaten West and Nato especially with "nuclear options". Russia sees Ukraine matter totally internal matter, where no else should've any right to intervene.


I read about it. I've heard an analyst discuss it, saying that indeed Putin ended up to believing his own lies to a degree. Since his puppet was ousted as Ukrainian PM in 2014, he has had Russian media repeating on loop that Ukraine was a part of Russia and that it was a neonazi coup. Then he got stuck in his own rhetoric and ended up believing that any military assault would just be a walk in the park that would be over in 48 hours.

That analyst claimed that having to start a siege in Kiev was one of the two major defeats Putin already suffered, because in siege battles, the attacked is always at a disadvantage, and he's likely going to bleed troops and material he thought he would just parade as a show of strength.

The other major defeat is the EU reaction. He expected them to be indecisive and meek because the EU has never been focused on military - but as a result, he got several countries supplying weapons to Ukraine, the EU itself moving funds to help Ukraine resist, and even more spectacularly, he got freaking GERMANY to suddenly decide it needed to unlock €100 billion to modernize its army (from what I read it's 3 times their yearly budget, so it's no spare change). The same Germany he had basically bullied into inaction by playing both on German guilt over WWII in Russia and on their dependence on Russian gas.

Also, considering how much the Russian army seems to struggle in Ukraine, I doubt Finland is in any danger - except of course if he literally decides to go nuclear, but then Europe becomes a wasteland so Finland would be in no more danger than any other country.

We're talking about the one country that stopped the Red Army during WWII. If Putin has a hard time going through Ukraine which is a relatively flat and hospitable country, they are going to get decimated in Finland.

The Baltic states however are something entirely different, but once again, Putin is going to have to divert many troops to take Ukraine...and he's going to lose a lot of them - and with the various sanctions, he ain't going to easily replace whatever he loses.

Of course I might be wrong and he might take Kyiv next week, but that does not look like it, and the more time passes, the more Russia will be in deep shit. Just like other countries suffered when they invaded Russia, actually.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 28 guests