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Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 8th, 2022, 10:48 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 8th, 2022, 10:49 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 8th, 2022, 10:49 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 8th, 2022, 10:49 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » April 10th, 2022, 4:30 am

Gah, hopefully Audemus will finish the CEM port to LE rather sooner than later, I really want to play ME3 in the Legendary Format.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 11th, 2022, 6:13 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 11th, 2022, 6:13 pm

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Cheers, Shepard.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 13th, 2022, 6:51 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 13th, 2022, 6:54 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 15th, 2022, 7:52 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 15th, 2022, 7:52 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » April 15th, 2022, 10:00 pm

I know virtually nothing about any of those jobs, but I feel confident I could fake any of the senior/lead positions by bullying nerds. Sign me up, Mr. Bioware!

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Mazder » April 17th, 2022, 4:28 am

....

AAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

My skills are gone and NOW they're hiring?!

Oh well I am probably on the wrong continent for them anyway...

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 19th, 2022, 2:30 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » April 19th, 2022, 10:19 pm

Once upon a time, I'd say that preserving player agency within the context of any game is vital, but now, eh. In the case of ME3, is there any reason to preserve people who chose Synthesis, or refused to deal with the Star Child? Both of them end the setting. The bigger debate would be between Destroy and Control, but Control all but requires a fundamentally different possible story, or has to pull away from the concept of immortal Shepard + Reapers keeping the galaxy in check. With Destroy, you have the variations in EMS, which factions are even alive, and so on. But those are "workable." Such that even if the canon _was_ High EMS Destroy + Sided with quarians, you could still have Geth in ME4. Just as an example.

Romance is the trickiest one. Because clearly my tastes are the best possible ones, if only everyone else would realize it. That would best be left ambiguous, or more ideally, limited reactivity and you can set the variables on any new game. Gaider is right in that 20% of people would loathe any decision that makes impossible a player decision, but 20% of people will also loathe every word they write. Whose loathing is best incurred isn't a winning mindset.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » April 20th, 2022, 3:10 am

Since the next ME game obviously will be set hundreds of years after ME3 (see wrinkled eyes Liara), the romance thing is kinda moot and can be handled in a few lines of dialogue. Some extra lines if people chose the Blueberry. Everybody else romanceable than her is already long dead.

Destroy or Control are more difficult to handle, obviously, because even if you go with "the Reapers and Shepreapard fucked off into dark space for some unknown reason", they are still out there, which changes at the core what possible future stories can be told, so you can't just handwave it off. I think they need to make one of the endings the clear canon. Synthesis is of course fundamentally impossible to maintain as a silent possibility ending, since it just changes the setting fundamentally. Also Shepard would be held as a horrible war criminal by large swathes of the galactic populace for doing it, which won't be BioWare's intention.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » April 21st, 2022, 11:45 pm

Samara _could_ be alive, don't think I heard the hard upper limit on asari aging, though she obviously won't. Think Miranda was supposed to live into her 200s, though still long dead by then. There's always the stasis option, but no reason to do that. Krogans could easily be alive, though I imagine Wrex won't. Otherwise, yeah, dust in the wind. Which would be annoying, if I didn't like Liara a good bit.

Assuming the early promo stuff is actually related to the plot, "search for Shepard" could work either way. Either he ain't dead, or his last location has some galactic importance, or, he's Shepreaper and isn't around forcibly keeping the .

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 22nd, 2022, 9:53 pm

Vol wrote:Once upon a time, I'd say that preserving player agency within the context of any game is vital, but now, eh. In the case of ME3, is there any reason to preserve people who chose Synthesis, or refused to deal with the Star Child? Both of them end the setting. The bigger debate would be between Destroy and Control, but Control all but requires a fundamentally different possible story, or has to pull away from the concept of immortal Shepard + Reapers keeping the galaxy in check. With Destroy, you have the variations in EMS, which factions are even alive, and so on. But those are "workable." Such that even if the canon _was_ High EMS Destroy + Sided with quarians, you could still have Geth in ME4. Just as an example.

Romance is the trickiest one. Because clearly my tastes are the best possible ones, if only everyone else would realize it. That would best be left ambiguous, or more ideally, limited reactivity and you can set the variables on any new game. Gaider is right in that 20% of people would loathe any decision that makes impossible a player decision, but 20% of people will also loathe every word they write. Whose loathing is best incurred isn't a winning mindset.


Another thing to consider: when it comes to handling the big decisions and the push-and-pull between respecting player agency and the needs of the narrative, one should ask if it adds or takes away from the setting and the larger story. For example, the krogan are a fan-favorite species. 94% of players saved Wrex and 96% of players cured the genophage. Making it canon keeps the krogan around and ensures their plot involvement, making the setting more interesting while keeping the overwhelming majority of fans happy, plus now it opens up new storytelling possibilities whereas if you don't make the genophage cure canon than you're severely limited narratively speaking. The krogan being completely wiped out (or just a few moribund decades away from total extinction) isn't as enriching to the setting compared to what a resurgent krogan renaissance might look like, or addressing the concerns of the anti-cure position: the rapid krogan expansion of the last [insert number here] centuries could destabilize the delicate balance of power in the galaxy and the contest for the rights of colonization and new planet claims could potentially result in bloody conflicts if cool heads and rational thinking didn't prevail. Showing wether the choice to give the krogan a second chance ends up in a tragic repeat of the Krogan Rebellions or will continue to bear fruit as the reforms and policies Wrex and Bakara started stood strong through the new generations is more compelling than just cutting them out of the franchise entirely, both for invested players and ambitious writers. Bioware knows this or they wouldn't be teasing the return of the geth so hard, which are another fan-favorite. (Not to mention, you can also square that circle by just getting around the initial choice: even if Renegade Shep sabotaged the cure and even shot Mordin in the back and killed Wrex to cover it up, you could always say some other salarian at the STG felt guilty about his people's role in the genophage and developed another cure later based on Mordin's notes. Granted this example is super lazy and nullifies that initial choice, but the basic point stands, and Bioware's no stranger to implementing such a thing. Same thing happened with Anderson. You can pick him for the Council, but he'll leave and become an Alliance admiral regardless of your wishes. The mounting evidence, limited and uncertain as it is, suggests Bioware is going with the Destroy ending and undoing the geth genocide in some capacity, so the concept is clearly at play and most fans seem to be onboard with it based on what I'm observing.) The small stuff is another matter, and shouldn't be set in stone. What gender you picked, who you romanced, etc., can be easily squared away with some specific dialogue based on player input. I wouldn't be surprised if the next ME game has some kind of quick recap of the ME trilogy that gives players the option to make specific choices about Shep's life for references (with Liara present, she can provide the new protagonists with stories and anecdotes about serving on the Normandy and working with Shepard and what the galaxy was like 600 years ago), like the interactive backstory Genesis comic the PS3 and Switch versions of ME2 and ME3 had. Something like "Council Spectre Shepard personnel file cannot be opened, data corrupted; reconstruct new profile" and then you can build it up from there.
Last edited by Dragaros on April 22nd, 2022, 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » April 22nd, 2022, 9:54 pm

"Cut content from the Saren boss fight, restored with a mod"

I can understand why it was cut. It disrupts the pacing and just amounts to Sovereign giving another villainous monologue when its not really needed.

But it is amusing how 40k Tech-Priest/old-school Necron/Agent Smith-like he is here. THE FLESH IS WEAK AND DISGUSTING. :lol:
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » April 23rd, 2022, 2:36 am

If they somehow manage to have EDI around (by her having made a back-up of her conciousness or whatever), they could negate Destroys negative effects wholesale. ^^

And, yeah, that cut Sovereign speech is kinda weaksauce to his prior, really unsettling, speech on Virmire. I guess it loses a lot of its potency by using Sarens voice.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 9th, 2022, 5:05 pm

https://www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/com ... erch_news/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-j9LnUgG7_w

"The Next Mass Effect promo poster/sneak peek is now available as a lithograph via the BioWare Gear Store. It’s listed as “Mass Effect Mysteries From The Future” and the product description reads:

THE SHOW GOES ON… Shepard’s final quest may have ended the threat of the Reapers but at great cost including Earth itself. While Shepard and the survivors are left to pick up the pieces, fans are left wondering what’s next.

Mass Effect will continue. And with the sneak peek poster we got from the BioWare team as part of the N7 Day 2021, there is a lot to unpack. From countless theories regarding the setting of the next game to the bewilderment on whether Geth would make a comeback, eagle-eyed fans have a lot to make of this Mass Effect Mysteries from the Future Lithograph.

A Krogan and its 4-member team walk towards a Geth-shaped crater with a ship that resembles the Normandy with SFX emblazoned on either side. All this along with BioWare GM Gary McKay’s hints about the “at least five” surprises within the poster will make this Lithograph a great material for study, discussion, and endless pondering. The special pearl gloss finish and high-quality printing ensure that no detail is lost, right to the specks of dust and snow on the mysterious crater.

So, suit up, hang this lithograph on your wall and get ready for the next chapter in Mass Effect."


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"While Shepard and the survivors are left to pick up the pieces"
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Deano » May 10th, 2022, 11:58 am

Dragaros wrote:"While Shepard and the survivors are left to pick up the pieces"


Oh shiiii

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Mazder » May 10th, 2022, 1:16 pm

So Destroy is the canon ending.
Good. As it should be.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby TTTX » May 10th, 2022, 4:50 pm

the post is over, stop reading and move on.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Someone With Mass » May 10th, 2022, 5:45 pm

Destroy has its own problems, but it's better than the pretentious crap Synthesis pushes and Control doesn't really solve much.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » May 10th, 2022, 9:46 pm

I'd like to know the behind the scenes process that ended up with Synthesis. Thematically, we all understand why it's there, and structurally they needed another option. But the planning, the meetings, the notes the writer had. It'd be interesting if it was meant to be more than what it seems.

That said, Bioware doth protest too much. Clearly we're playing as Shepard, because something something Cerberus implants extended life something, because that would be ridiculously peak fan service and make a billion dollars.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Mazder » May 11th, 2022, 4:40 am

Someone With Mass wrote:Destroy has its own problems, but it's better than the pretentious crap Synthesis pushes and Control doesn't really solve much.

I still see it as "it destroys everything with Reaper code in it" So the Geth, EDI and a few other things.
But certainly less problems than Control, Synthesis and just giving up.

Vol wrote:I'd like to know the behind the scenes process that ended up with Synthesis. Thematically, we all understand why it's there, and structurally they needed another option. But the planning, the meetings, the notes the writer had. It'd be interesting if it was meant to be more than what it seems.

That said, Bioware doth protest too much. Clearly we're playing as Shepard, because something something Cerberus implants extended life something, because that would be ridiculously peak fan service and make a billion dollars.

Nah I don't think we'll be playing as Shepard again. As bad ass as it would be playing old man/woman shep just smacks of that shite Terminator film.
A cameo or mention of Shep alive? Yeah, more than likely.
So far we KNOW of a Krogan and Liara.
For the Krogan my money is on either Grunt or some new one. I don't think it's going to be Wrex.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » May 11th, 2022, 7:42 am

Well, that brought a tear of joy to my eye. I'm probably hoping way too much that we can play as Shep again. Probably not, but damn it would be cool.

Wow, I didn't think the mere idea of being able to play Shepard again would bring me so much joy.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Someone With Mass » May 11th, 2022, 8:50 am

Mazder wrote:I still see it as "it destroys everything with Reaper code in it" So the Geth, EDI and a few other things.
But certainly less problems than Control, Synthesis and just giving up.


I'd be completely fine if Destroy was retconned to being a special kind of radiation that the Reapers are vulnerable to (some lore guy whipped up the details, but it never saw the light of day) instead of being ambiguous space magic.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Alienmorph » May 11th, 2022, 11:11 am

Don't get your hopes up. Thei're gonna Force Awakens us, I guarantee it.

Like, I'm sure it's gonna be set in a post-Destroy Ending, but all we're gonna do is go out looking for Shepard long after thei're gone. And if we're lucky, there will be flashbacks or audio logs showing what they did after the events of ME3.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 11th, 2022, 10:08 pm

Vol wrote:I'd like to know the behind the scenes process that ended up with Synthesis. Thematically, we all understand why it's there, and structurally they needed another option. But the planning, the meetings, the notes the writer had. It'd be interesting if it was meant to be more than what it seems.

That said, Bioware doth protest too much. Clearly we're playing as Shepard, because something something Cerberus implants extended life something, because that would be ridiculously peak fan service and make a billion dollars.


I'd like to as well, because I just find Synthesis to be so ethically monstrous, philosophically abhorrent, narratively incoherent, and thematically inconsistent that the fact the game pushes the idea that this is the best ending, or that this ending is even in the game at all, blows my mind even to this day. The whole framework and structure of the ME3's finale is dumb, adding in the "But you'll kill EDI and the Geth because the Crucible can't discriminate even though it can in other endings!" caveat to Destroy is dumb, and I personally find Control to be dumb and narrative whiplash of the worst sort considering TIM's story arc, but I can at least understand them being born out of a super rushed production and misplaced priorities and whatnot. (One obvious example: When they blew up the relays in the original endings, pre-Extended Cut, I don't think they ever sat down and really thought about what they were doing, whereas we fans noticed that immediately and went "Oh shit, we just annihilated every solar system with a relay in the galaxy, killing more people and life forms than even the Reapers were planning to and condemning any possible survivors to run out of fuel and food and never see their homeworlds again as they slowly starve to death or kill each other over scraps of resources in a technological dark age with no hope!" Which is why they made sure to change that and show that the relays didn't blow up, they were just damaged and could be repaired and everyone who didn't die in the final battle could make it home and rebuild. In a series all about consequences and repercussions, they didn't take the time, or have the time, to look at the consequences and repercussions. Thats what happens when you lose track of your own lore and story because of unforgiving time constraints or letting your own hype blind you.) But Synthesis... I can't even put into words how dumb Synthesis is in my eyes. That people to this day defend it and argue that its beautiful and the epitome of benevolence instead of the nightmare it is... makes me shudder in revulsion.

At this early juncture I don't believe Shep will be alive or playable, but I do think they'll play up the fanservice factor (because they desperately need this game to be a hit and sell good, lets be honest) as much as possible by: [A. confirming that Shep survived the final battle with the Reapers and had a happily ever after with his or her love interest [B. Liara will be there to provide anecdotes and flashbacks and [C. Shep will have one last legacy to leave the galaxy, probably in the form of some macguffin, so Shep feels important to the story without actually being in the story. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they go even further by having some kind of non-sentient V.I. hologram Greybox type thing of Shep going on, so the player can interact with it and ask questions, but without going into super specific details or having Shep overshadow the new protagonist.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 11th, 2022, 10:09 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 11th, 2022, 10:10 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » May 12th, 2022, 11:19 pm

Nexus Uprising was not remotely as readable as the OT books, which were bland, but didn't hurt my head.

@Mazder: I'm thinking that if, based on the tiniest scrap of info we have, Shepard is a big part of the plot. Which makes sense, as mentioned, Bioware needs to play it safe for their brand value if nothing else. But Shepard's value to the setting was never anything more than his person. Extremely good soldier, great leader, connoisseur of alien women, etc. None of that has appreciable value once he finally dies, unless there's something special he did later in life that needs finding ("I left it all...in One Piece!"->Shepar D., Commander). What use would a corpse have? They could invent something, but I'd put it 50/50 he's alive in some capacity if that is in fact how the plot is focused.

@magnus: All that said, if they actually finagle it so we can play as him again, fuck it, I'm in. ME3 broke my brain for a while, I'll accept a mulligan, even if it makes no sense. Man deserved a better send off.

@Drag: Right. It made sense in the context of the setting, where the "organics make AI that goes genocidal" paradigm is a _fact_ and inevitable. So the fence-sitting solution is to end the problem. In our context, it makes no sense, but it's like the Wall of the Faithless in NWN2. You have to accept the premise for any of it to work, even if we can immediately see the glaring issues.

Heh. I remember in the immediate aftermath, I forget who, but some Bioware people were saying, "Oh it was obviously implied they'd fix the relays and stuff!" Because what we got was so incredibly bleak it was hard to believe. Entire quarian fleet stuff near Earth? Turians too? Krogans? _Food_?

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » May 13th, 2022, 1:34 am

Vol wrote:@magnus: All that said, if they actually finagle it so we can play as him again, fuck it, I'm in. ME3 broke my brain for a while, I'll accept a mulligan, even if it makes no sense. Man deserved a better send off.


Basically exactly that. I don't like making myself vulnerable again to people who have now a track record of fucking up stories, but if they give us the chance to play as Shepard again... yeah, definitely all in. At least they'd probably try for another trilogy before fucking up the ending again.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Mazder » May 13th, 2022, 2:28 am

Vol wrote:@Mazder: I'm thinking that if, based on the tiniest scrap of info we have, Shepard is a big part of the plot. Which makes sense, as mentioned, Bioware needs to play it safe for their brand value if nothing else. But Shepard's value to the setting was never anything more than his person. Extremely good soldier, great leader, connoisseur of alien women, etc. None of that has appreciable value once he finally dies, unless there's something special he did later in life that needs finding ("I left it all...in One Piece!"->Shepar D., Commander). What use would a corpse have? They could invent something, but I'd put it 50/50 he's alive in some capacity if that is in fact how the plot is focused.

What info actually points to Shepard being involved?
Other than the "leaked" lithograph description which is already up in the air on it's validity (so we can't take it as confirmed) what actually points to Shepard themselves? The N7 logo? Liara's involvement?
Both of which don't point to Shepard explicitly. Liara being involved is about the same as Morrigan being involved in DA:I meaning the Grey Warden player character being involved in that game.
The N7 logo is a military logo, not exclusive to Shepard. Alec Ryder and Kai Leng were both N7's, one associated with the logo and one not.

As far as I know from the tiny scrap of info we have there is going to be a bridging/involvement of moth the Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies. Liara climbs up a dead Reaper, picks up an N7 logo from a piece of armour and looks over to her team. The place they are seems to be a oddly shaped crater.
That's pretty much it. Unless the game taking place in the time after Shepard decision means they're involved I really don't see how they are.
They could go anywhere without shepard and have them as a cameo and that be that.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 15th, 2022, 7:50 pm

Vol wrote:@Drag: Right. It made sense in the context of the setting, where the "organics make AI that goes genocidal" paradigm is a _fact_ and inevitable. So the fence-sitting solution is to end the problem. In our context, it makes no sense, but it's like the Wall of the Faithless in NWN2. You have to accept the premise for any of it to work, even if we can immediately see the glaring issues.


Not to mention how it undermines the whole geth/quarian narrative --even more so with the way ME3 in particular throws all nuance and moral ambiguity out the window as annoying as that is-- if you lean Paragon to any degree.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 15th, 2022, 7:51 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 15th, 2022, 7:53 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » May 16th, 2022, 1:52 am

Still waiting on the CEM remake by Audemus before I go and play ME3LE. Seems that I'll be trying out a host of other mods as well then, given how many good ones are now out, although mostly cosmetic stuff.

Also, least favorite element of ME3 are the assignments and Galaxy at War missions? I guess they circumvented the endings by not declaring them a "gameplay element". ^^

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » May 18th, 2022, 12:43 am

Dragaros wrote:Not to mention how it undermines the whole geth/quarian narrative --even more so with the way ME3 in particular throws all nuance and moral ambiguity out the window as annoying as that is-- if you lean Paragon to any degree.

Sort of a fundamental flaw with the morality system, despite their best efforts. It's why I recommend Paragade, a good guy who also makes sane decisions. Though I really should finally play the Legendary edition and see how being better educated changes my perspective. I remember Jade Empire having Open Palm being generally the sane option, barring a few rare exceptions, like the slaves in the pirate hold.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Sinekein » May 18th, 2022, 1:31 am

I might be mistaken - I am a bit completionist so I tend to have high morality scores from various sidequests - but I think in LE a few morality checks have been made easier. I recall that some were quite tough if you did not play full Paragon or full Renegade - Zaeed or Morinth come to mind. This time I played 60/40 Paragon/Renegade and I managed to Paragon Zaeed. I couldn't Renegade him or Morinth though so I think in some cases only the highest gauge is authorized.

I ended up Paragade by sticking up to some basic principles: protect the weak and the innocent, but have zero pity for mercs, politicians or the criminals who attack me.

It reached its limits in Omega though. I got Aria saying that I was a mystery, even though I stuck to the same principles all along. Basically, whenever only merc lives were involved, I went Renegade. Whenever it was civilians, Paragon.

I hope that whenever they release the next one, they'll try to do something a bit more multidimensional.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby magnuskn » May 18th, 2022, 1:38 am

I don't know, the only times I felt Renegade was any useful was in some interrupts in ME2 and ME3 when it did make Shepard do something awesome, like headbutt a Krogan.

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 18th, 2022, 9:10 pm

Vol wrote:
Dragaros wrote:Not to mention how it undermines the whole geth/quarian narrative --even more so with the way ME3 in particular throws all nuance and moral ambiguity out the window as annoying as that is-- if you lean Paragon to any degree.

Sort of a fundamental flaw with the morality system, despite their best efforts. It's why I recommend Paragade, a good guy who also makes sane decisions. Though I really should finally play the Legendary edition and see how being better educated changes my perspective. I remember Jade Empire having Open Palm being generally the sane option, barring a few rare exceptions, like the slaves in the pirate hold.


I didn’t explain myself well; that’s my bad. Poor word choice on my part. When I said Paragon, I wasn’t speaking of the in-game morality system but about the themes of overcoming differences, not being controlled by the past and peaceful coexistence (a Renegade can do it too, even if its more in the spirit of “They will both make excellent cannon fodder for when we take back Earth!”), which is something the narrative of the Rannoch arc pushes hard since it wants you to feel sympathy for the geth, to the point the Morning War issue becomes less a complex grey vs grey tragedy of misunderstandings and more simplistically black and white. Even back in ME2, the franchise is nudging the player to consider reconciling the divide between the quarians and the geth as the best option, even if ME3 gives you the freedom to not do that and players can assign Shep whatever motivations for doing so as you see fit. But to accept the legitimacy and authority of the Starbrat, you have to agree with his basic premise that organics and synthetics will always be in conflict, and any peace forged between the two is temporary at best, which completely contradicts everything having to do with the quarians and the geth--and EDI's arc as well--if you didn’t choose to just sacrifice one. If the Starbrat is speaking true, than the quarians were absolutely justified in all their actions, because even if the geth didn’t want to rebel then, it was inevitable they would have rebelled at some point, risking not only the quarians’ extinction but the extinction of all other species as well. Complete thematic whiplash. Why bother pushing for Tali to re-evaluate her opinions on the geth if the game is going to throw it out the window in the eleventh hour? Why show that the geth aren't the flesh-hating boogeymen we thought they were and are deserving of life if you then say peace with them its actually impossible unless you drench the entire galaxy in Shepard's magical essence? You can’t say what the quarians did was wrong, then have the story go “meatbags and robots will always be trying to kill each other so fusing them together down to the molecular level is the only path to peace”; that’s narrative incoherence of the worst sort, among other things. ME3's ending is just such a maelstrom of bad storytelling, it boggles the mind. An ending were the fleets of a united galaxy beating the Reapers in a straight fight --the "Star Wars" ending as some call it-- might have been cliche, but at least it would have been keeping with the themes and plot structure set up prior. Now, if we could properly challenge the Starbrat's assertion, that might be another matter, but we can't, not even post-Extended Cut. Maybe it might have been a cool moment to have Shepard, and by extension the player, rip apart the Reapers' cold, heartless calculus and reveal them not as the unknowable, god-like beings that present themselves as but as the hollow, repulsive, limited constructs that they truly are with all the examples we've witnessed and done over the three games, because it would reward players who cared about the story and characters and lore and were smart enough to pick up on the narrative's themes and metaphors if the framework of the finale was built to support that, but such was not that case, so we'll never know. I've always been in the camp that the Reapers' motives and origins should have remained unknown to keep them scary and mysterious in true Lovecraftian fashion anyway, so things would have been radically different if I had my way.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 18th, 2022, 9:11 pm

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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Dragaros » May 18th, 2022, 9:12 pm

https://twitter.com/MassEffect_News/sta ... 3320365056

Image

Citadel and Shadow Broker being #1 and #2 respectfully is no surprise. I am surprised Overlord is at #7.
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Re: Bioware General (Mass Effect/Dragon Age/Other)

Postby Vol » May 19th, 2022, 12:13 am

Sinekein wrote:I might be mistaken - I am a bit completionist so I tend to have high morality scores from various sidequests - but I think in LE a few morality checks have been made easier. I recall that some were quite tough if you did not play full Paragon or full Renegade - Zaeed or Morinth come to mind. This time I played 60/40 Paragon/Renegade and I managed to Paragon Zaeed. I couldn't Renegade him or Morinth though so I think in some cases only the highest gauge is authorized.

I'm a completionist too, and I'm struggling to think of any check I wasn't able to make. ME1, I think the non-lethal option for the colonists is fairly high? Otherwise always made Morinth/Zaeeds despite doing mixed. Morality was always wonky, first option in the games is to sooth a mentally ill man in a high stress situation or brutalize him for no reason.

Still annoyed we couldn't get rid of Aria. The Omega DLC was like it was out of a different story, with the way we're helping her out, but like Sloann, we're compelled to think she's too cool for school or something.

magnuskn wrote:I don't know, the only times I felt Renegade was any useful was in some interrupts in ME2 and ME3 when it did make Shepard do something awesome, like headbutt a Krogan.

Mostly in the sense of not pretending like I know this game is space opera and that everything works out well no matter how utterly kind Shepard is.

Dragaros wrote:I didn’t explain myself well; that’s my bad. Poor word choice on my part. When I said Paragon, I wasn’t speaking of the in-game morality system but about the themes of overcoming differences, not being controlled by the past and peaceful coexistence (a Renegade can do it too, even if its more in the spirit of “They will both make excellent cannon fodder for when we take back Earth!”), which is something the narrative of the Rannoch arc pushes hard since it wants you to feel sympathy for the geth, to the point the Morning War issue becomes less a complex grey vs grey tragedy of misunderstandings and more simplistically black and white.

Well, know you've explained yourself too well!

The simplest answer is that the people in charge weren't the ones who made the setting. The good doctors were long gone, and while skilled writers remained, they didn't have the heart and overarching understanding of the story being told.

But disregarding that, we're still obligated to take author's fiat at face value. If the Leviathans had seen enough cycles of organics making AI who turn into genocide-bots who wipe out organics that they create the Reapers to figure out a solution, and then supreme irony occurs, and that the quarians and Geth were just one more example of that case, does the possibility of an armistice disprove the point? There could have been hundreds, thousands of times AI made peace with their creators, it's all assumed in the reaping cycle that they've figured out the optimal time span before organics can really start fucking up when guided down the right tech path. Thematically, yeah, you're right, it's not totally coherent, but not much of ME3 is if we try to take the long view of it.


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